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Misc. News on Pilots and Series
FordStaffDate: Saturday, 19 Nov 2011, 08:15 | Message # 31
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Maybe, through I'm not sure how much sexual drive River had during the show for example or in Serenity. She grabbed Jaynes balls but was that an in-universe indication of her fascination with the opposing gender?

Maybe if she lost control and got horny then she may have attempted something and given that nobody can really overpower her then its possible that she could even rape somebody( even Mal) I suppose. She can't really control herself all the time and these are fairly strong feelings. But I doubt even Joss attempted to go that far.


She did not show sex drive no. But I was thinking more just being weird or creepy. She could even seduce someone as a part of a gambit in some episode, but never really mean it. Joss Whedon loved the creep factor, so this would be a perfect way to induce it. I do not think a rape that actually happens is really an option on the table, even if you could make a context for it, would somebody really put it in the show?

Her crotch attack on Jayne was just for the laughs, while also being potential sub-text (her subtext with Jayne was always for laughs and it worked so it is different) . IF the show lasted long enough surely River would have it to where she shows a sex drive at some point unless they wanted to make her asexual (that is not sex with yourself, it is a disinterest in sex) , but asexuals are almost never portrayed in television and when they are it is usually incorrectly. The only way I would see them doing that option would be if it was as a side effect of the experiments.

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I still don't get through. As I remember there is a clear turn down option still when the dialogue comes which triggers the scene before the Suicide Mission. I never got that far with Jack through so her options may be less clear than Mirandas( why is her name Miranda BTW biggrin ). But I know that there were several situations and i Dragon age 2 too when I started a fight or I were ruder then I wanted to be. And I recall that I unintentionally refused to do a side mission too because she didn't say what the wheel wrote.


I had no options from what I remember once she entered my cabin. It was forced upon me, shepherd was raped I say.

You may have blown my mind with the Miranda thing, is it because Miranda in ME 2 is part of a immoral experimenter organization, while the planet Miranda in firefly was a victim of such an organization? It would make sense Mass Effect throws around references every which way, even to more obscure science fiction works. To bad I am getting all the required SF shows in now after playing the games, I must have missed so much I could only get Asimov references.

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Somebody loves things as classical as they can get smile

Through there are exceptions.


I am very confused and am not grasping your meaning. Is it you or me that likes classics, and what would be classics? Also what are the exceptions of which you speak? Sorry this just flew over my head. biggrin


Keep Flying - Not much, but it's enough.
 
BlaziusDate: Saturday, 19 Nov 2011, 23:54 | Message # 32
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I am very confused and am not grasping your meaning. Is it you or me that likes classics, and what would be classics? Also what are the exceptions of which you speak? Sorry this just flew over my head.


I read your sentences again and I figured out that I probably didn't reply to what you wrote but I'm a bit lost how you use the word deconstruction here( the dictionary I use only writes the literal meaning). Do you mean that Firefly and BSG return to the roots or the other way around? I'm a bit slow sometimes when I'm tired( lot to do nowadays) biggrin

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She did not show sex drive no. But I was thinking more just being weird or creepy. She could even seduce someone as a part of a gambit in some episode, but never really mean it. Joss Whedon loved the creep factor, so this would be a perfect way to induce it. I do not think a rape that actually happens is really an option on the table, even if you could make a context for it, would somebody really put it in the show?


Of course not. An innocent kiss with somebody close to her age is the most I could imagine or an implicit mention if there is more happening but very far into the late seasons.

But never somebody from the crew and not even out of a funny mad scene because the River type of characters are usually not part of the relationship system in any way within the main cast because that would make them too trivial maybe. Showmakers used to set them apart a bit to retain their uniqueness and set them a bit above of the crew.

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Her crotch attack on Jayne was just for the laughs, while also being potential sub-text (her subtext with Jayne was always for laughs and it worked so it is different) . IF the show lasted long enough surely River would have it to where she shows a sex drive at some point unless they wanted to make her asexual (that is not sex with yourself, it is a disinterest in sex) , but asexuals are almost never portrayed in television and when they are it is usually incorrectly. The only way I would see them doing that option would be if it was as a side effect of the experiments.


Asexual if done right is also a very good alternative for River I think. And it could be perfectly explained by the experiments. I think that River needs to be inhuman enough and placed above trivial human emotions enough to be able to fulfill the "blind seer" and guide role to the others. As such her destiny should lie in a higher purpose than love and such.

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I had no options from what I remember once she entered my cabin. It was forced upon me, shepherd was raped I say.


I meant before you launch the Suicide Mission.

There should be a convo which triggers or deactivates the scene. The game remembers your responses and after you launch the SM it checks the questions and it gives you an appropriate scene. At least there was one with Miranda but maybe its not that apparent with Jack. It could also be a glitch.

Or she just thought that she WILL have sex with Shepherd no matter what biggrin

Unrelated hint of the day: if you have sex with a certain secret character that can have an interesting effect(sadly negative) on your character wink

Quote (FordStaff)
You may have blown my mind with the Miranda thing, is it because Miranda in ME 2 is part of a immoral experimenter organization, while the planet Miranda in firefly was a victim of such an organization? It would make sense Mass Effect throws around references every which way, even to more obscure science fiction works. To bad I am getting all the required SF shows in now after playing the games, I must have missed so much I could only get Asimov references.


Some Firefly fan players brought up this on the Bioware boards too and some had very good points, although I think Jack is more a River reference than what they list but maybe both is true.

Some examples are:

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Captain of Serenity, during the suicide mission, leaves the crew on a barricade to hold position against the Reavers, while he accomplishes the final task of the quest (reveal the origin of Reavers).
Captain of Normandy, during the suicide mission, leaves the crew (except for 2 ppl) on a barricade to hold position against the Collectors, while he accomplishes the final task of the quest (kill the Reaper).

13
During the suicide mission, the door blocking the attack of Reavers/Collectors fails to close. A technician specialist (Kaylee for Serenity / Legion, Tali for ME2) is needed to close them.

14
The "health elixir" is in form of a quickly applied foam - Serenity.
The "health elixir" is in form of a quickly applied gel - Normandy.

Also Joker wanted to pull a Crazy Ivan in one of his conversations.

Also both Serenity and Normandy are named after battles.

Also there are Blue Suns in ME too, a mercenary group founded by Zaeed a DLC character.

Also Zaeed says in his loyalty mission once that: "Get it out of the way so we can concentrate on being big goddamn heroes."

Also the quarian who helps you fight the Geth armature( the walker) on the planet where you recruit Tali is voiced by Adam Baldwin as it seems( not a reference maybe but a tie with Firefly nonetheless).

There are probably more.



Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
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KrelleKDate: Sunday, 20 Nov 2011, 01:26 | Message # 33
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That could possibly be the most awkward and messed up scene ever made. I would hope that even Joss Whedon would not have gone as far as having actual rape on the show, even if River was the perpetrator . I would not be surprised if River would have tried seducing some member of the cast at some point, in fact it seems almost inevitable with her insanity and large amounts of subtext with all the characters.


there is a fanfic on bluesunroom where River has a good eye for Mal and she ends up sneaking into his room.
 
FordStaffDate: Sunday, 20 Nov 2011, 06:02 | Message # 34
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there is a fanfic on bluesunroom where River has a good eye for Mal and she ends up sneaking into his room


While I find this to be bleh wacko , if River was to take a liking to any of the crew members in that way Mal would make the most sense.

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t I'm a bit lost how you use the word deconstruction here( the dictionary I use only writes the literal meaning). Do you mean that Firefly and BSG return to the roots or the other way around? I'm a bit slow sometimes when I'm tired( lot to do nowadays)


Sorry about that, I often use troper slang. Genres over time will have tropes associated with them. A deconstruction takes these tropes and either mess with them or demonstrate how their usage is flawed. For example Firefly had no faster than light travel, which is the most commonly used device used in the space opera genre. It also had absolutely no sound in space which is also a trope associated with space opera (The big damn movie did have sounds in the space battle, but it is justified by the fight being a nebula).

Another example of a specific deconstruction is when Mal is fighting his Niska's henchman who tortured him and Zoe breaks in to save him. Jayne (or some other crew member forget who) starts to raise his gun and Zoe stops him stating "This is something, the captains got to do himself". Mal replies "No it aint" , and so Zoe and Jayne unleash a rain of bullets into the henchman's chest. This is a deconstruction of the "This is something he has got to do himself " trope, although this is a more general non-genre trope.

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Of course not. An innocent kiss with somebody close to her age is the most I could imagine or an implicit mention if there is more happening but very far into the late seasons. But never somebody from the crew and not even out of a funny mad scene because the River type of characters are usually not part of the relationship system in any way within the main cast because that would make them too trivial maybe. Showmakers used to set them apart a bit to retain their uniqueness and set them a bit above of the crew.


As I said if River was seducing one of the crew it would be for a different goal than actually succeeding at it. Who on the crew would accept her advances anyways? Perhaps Jayne, but surely he would know Simon would go ape-shit ( I sure as hell would if I were Simon). He might even get another visit to the air lock.

As I imagine it we would see River out of no where seducing either Mal or Jayne most likely, which would be very confusing for the audience due to the lack of build up (and confusing for the character who is being seduced, leading to very large amounts of awkwardness). Then later in the episode it is revealed that River had done this to manipulate the person for whatever reason in some complex gambit to do accomplish something.

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Asexual if done right is also a very good alternative for River I think. And it could be perfectly explained by the experiments. I think that River needs to be inhuman enough and placed above trivial human emotions enough to be able to fulfill the "blind seer" and guide role to the others. As such her destiny should lie in a higher purpose than love and such.


Rule of Drama my friend (another troper term for you). River being asexual would eliminate vast amounts of potential drama for the story, and it really is a genuinely interesting subject to explore. Sure we could simplify things by making her asexual from the experiments, and it would fit perfectly ( you could even say the Alliance did this on purpose not accident, so that she would not be "distracted" ). Love is clearly important for River's story it is the very thing that saved her from hell.

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Unrelated hint of the day: if you have sex with a certain secret character that can have an interesting effect(sadly negative) on your character wink


Not if you kill the bitch like any sane rational human being would biggrin .

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although I think Jack is more a River reference than what they list but maybe both is true.


I do not think so. There were likely some references with in Jack's back-story to River Tam, but the whole character of Jack is not a reference to River Tam. Just because they share the same character archetype - insane child super soldier experiment - does not make it a reference.

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Captain of Serenity, during the suicide mission, leaves the crew on a barricade to hold position against the Reavers, while he accomplishes the final task of the quest (reveal the origin of Reavers). Captain of Normandy, during the suicide mission, leaves the crew (except for 2 ppl) on a barricade to hold position against the Collectors, while he accomplishes the final task of the quest (kill the Reaper).


That is not a reference, just a common trope in fiction. Often times the "Leader" or "The Captain" has to leave behind his bad-ass crew to face his nemesis or final enemy alone. Luke did this by choice in the Star Wars movies to face Darth Vader and the emperor, but that does not mean that Mal is a reference to Luke. References need to be more specific than a generic plot development or character archetype. The rest of your examples are better so I will not comment on them.


Keep Flying - Not much, but it's enough.

Message edited by FordStaff - Sunday, 20 Nov 2011, 06:06
 
BlaziusDate: Sunday, 20 Nov 2011, 08:00 | Message # 35
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That is not a reference, just a common trope in fiction. Often times the "Leader" or "The Captain" has to leave behind his bad-ass crew to face his nemesis or final enemy alone. Luke did this by choice in the Star Wars movies to face Darth Vader and the emperor, but that does not mean that Mal is a reference to Luke. References need to be more specific than a generic plot development or character archetype. The rest of your examples are better so I will not comment on them.


Actually the numbered ones are from the Bioware forum and the not numbered ones are either my own finding or I found them in an other post than where the list is.


Quote (FordStaff)
Sorry about that, I often use troper slang. Genres over time will have tropes associated with them. A deconstruction takes these tropes and either mess with them or demonstrate how their usage is flawed. For example Firefly had no faster than light travel, which is the most commonly used device used in the space opera genre. It also had absolutely no sound in space which is also a trope associated with space opera (The big damn movie did have sounds in the space battle, but it is justified by the fight being a nebula).

Another example of a specific deconstruction is when Mal is fighting his Niska's henchman who tortured him and Zoe breaks in to save him. Jayne (or some other crew member forget who) starts to raise his gun and Zoe stops him stating "This is something, the captains got to do himself". Mal replies "No it aint" , and so Zoe and Jayne unleash a rain of bullets into the henchman's chest. This is a deconstruction of the "This is something he has got to do himself " trope, although this is a more general non-genre trope.


Then thats how I assumed. I don't think the tropes themselves are the problem . The problem is that nowadays everybody forgot how to make them work in movies or shows but even in other medias. Because you can't say that SW is not stuffed with them. It uses a lot from earlier sources and even invented a lot of them itself. But you can't say they didn't work in SW either. The movies were beautifully crafted and made the tropes work as they should.

The problem is that since then everybody tried to copy the original brilliant works and misused every single thing they could steal. I can understand that then comes a few series or movie which tries to end the stupidity and they are good and unique on their own if they offer alternative but that doesn't mean that its a good idea to forget the old tropes and the classical works completely.

Thats why its good that Mass Effect tries to go back to the roots and shows again how to use the misused methods as they are meant to be used.




Quote (FordStaff)
Rule of Drama my friend (another troper term for you). River being asexual would eliminate vast amounts of potential drama for the story, and it really is a genuinely interesting subject to explore. Sure we could simplify things by making her asexual from the experiments, and it would fit perfectly ( you could even say the Alliance did this on purpose not accident, so that she would not be "distracted" ). Love is clearly important for River's story it is the very thing that saved her from hell.


River was well and sound without a love interest so far and I think there should be plenty of chance for drama without it too. Even her asexuality could be a source of drama. Through it could be changed eventually i'd suggest if somebody makes a continuation then it shouldn't be a central question for River. Also the romantic love interest pulls River out of insanity sounds a bit boring IMO. It was a nice change that Simon was Rivers brother and not her lover. Sometimes Hollywood seems to suggest that there aren't other types of love other than romantic love.


Quote (FordStaff)
I do not think so. There were likely some references with in Jack's back-story to River Tam, but the whole character of Jack is not a reference to River Tam. Just because they share the same character archetype - insane child super soldier experiment - does not make it a reference.


OK, her character wasn't like River at all. But her backstory seemed River inspired for me very much. Also remember that Jack was also a super-mega fighter as a result of the experiments. She rips 2 of those heavy robots to shreds along with troops and the prisons hull. One of the most powerful biotic ever created as it seems.

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Not if you kill the bitch like any sane rational human being would .


Its not my canon playthrough either. I was just curious wink


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FordStaffDate: Sunday, 20 Nov 2011, 08:36 | Message # 36
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One of the most powerful biotic ever created as it seems.

She is the most powerful human biotic, but it was questionable how she compared to other races. Asari have been show to have the strongest biotics overall, but the strongest asari biotic is never mentioned or greeted, so it is hard to say if she is the most powerful out of everyone.

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Actually the numbered ones are from the Bioware forum and the not numbered ones are either my own finding or I found them in an other post than where the list is.


Ah, alright then.

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Then thats how I assumed. I don't think the tropes themselves are the problem . The problem is that nowadays everybody forgot how to make them work in movies or shows but even in other medias. Because you can't say that SW is not stuffed with them. It uses a lot from earlier sources and even invented a lot of them itself. But you can't say they didn't work in SW either. The movies were beautifully crafted and made the tropes work as they should.

The problem is that since then everybody tried to copy the original brilliant works and misused every single thing they could steal. I can understand that then comes a few series or movie which tries to end the stupidity and they are good and unique on their own if they offer alternative but that doesn't mean that its a good idea to forget the old tropes and the classical works completely.


Tropes are not good or bad, they are tools which can be used well or not. Deconstructions still can use tons of tropes, Joss Whedon shows are all deconstructions and they are as troperific as it gets.

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River was well and sound without a love interest so far and I think there should be plenty of chance for drama without it too. Even her asexuality could be a source of drama. Through it could be changed eventually i'd suggest if somebody makes a continuation then it shouldn't be a central question for River. Also the romantic love interest pulls River out of insanity sounds a bit boring IMO. It was a nice change that Simon was Rivers brother and not her lover. Sometimes Hollywood seems to suggest that there aren't other types of love other than romantic love.

No it should not be a central question, but at some point it would have to come up. It would break the suspension of disbelief, if they traveled around for years without any indication or discussion of it, unless she just remains insane enough that no one is concerned with whether her future plans and what not. I would hope the story would not keep River as insane and messed up as she is in the show and movie, but at the same time she should never be anything close to normal.

NEVER should a romantic love interest be what brings River out of her insanity. To put it bluntly that would be stupid, if anything a love interest should mess with her head even further due to the mind reading, not to mention the fact that she is very strange (even if she was only half as messed up mentally) and may find it difficult to actually maintain a relationship with her love interest, if they were to ever find someone suitable. (also that person would have to join a crew of outcast renegade criminals, something most people would not be willing to do)

I completely agree that Simon and River had a relationship that was very refreshing to see. A love interest would not change their love, but perhaps their relationship would change. This is not a bad thing if done right, would we want 4-7 seasons or whatever of the same exact dynamic between them? The relationship will have to be different after the movie regardless because of Simon's relationship with Kaylee, while River seems happy for it surely she would get jealous. Not to mention her tendency to be a peeping tom, which will be noticed at some point. (another creepy thing in the show/movie cm-on Joss, oddly it did feel natural though)

I think we can say for sure that whether River is any combination of --- asexual, heterosexual, homosexual, insane, less insane, sane, strange, normal --- given the framework of the series and movies this is a subject that would need to be handled masterfully and with finesse. That is not to say it was an immediate concern but past more than 2 seasons it should be a subject at some point.


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Message edited by FordStaff - Sunday, 20 Nov 2011, 08:47
 
BlaziusDate: Monday, 21 Nov 2011, 20:51 | Message # 37
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She is the most powerful human biotic, but it was questionable how she compared to other races. Asari have been show to have the strongest biotics overall, but the strongest asari biotic is never mentioned or greeted, so it is hard to say if she is the most powerful out of everyone.


Yes, Asari seemed stronger indeed. I think the Matriarch from ME 1 was one of the strongest and I think she was more powerful than Jack. Also Samara and the Justicars were not weak either. However Jakc's trick when she awakens from the cryo stasis and even the fact that she has to be contained that way showed that she is incredibly powerful( sadly the game mechanics made the player forget about that after the recruit mission)

I also remember that she killed every other biotic easily when she escaped from the research facility.

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would hope the story would not keep River as insane and messed up as she is in the show and movie, but at the same time she should never be anything close to normal.


I felt that by the end of Serenity she was in pretty good shape actually so I think even in the immediate continuation she should be well enough to be a prominent member of the crew and she should definitely not fall apart in every minute.

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NEVER should a romantic love interest be what brings River out of her insanity. To put it bluntly that would be stupid, if anything a love interest should mess with her head even further due to the mind reading, not to mention the fact that she is very strange (even if she was only half as messed up mentally) and may find it difficult to actually maintain a relationship with her love interest, if they were to ever find someone suitable. (also that person would have to join a crew of outcast renegade criminals, something most people would not be willing to do)


Yes, that should cause issues to her instead of helping. Also because of the raw emotions she'd be actually very dangerous in this state. Especially for the boy who attempts to make the advancements.
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I completely agree that Simon and River had a relationship that was very refreshing to see. A love interest would not change their love, but perhaps their relationship would change. This is not a bad thing if done right, would we want 4-7 seasons or whatever of the same exact dynamic between them? The relationship will have to be different after the movie regardless because of Simon's relationship with Kaylee, while River seems happy for it surely she would get jealous. Not to mention her tendency to be a peeping tom, which will be noticed at some point. (another creepy thing in the show/movie cm-on Joss, oddly it did feel natural though)


Yes, things should change during the continuation, if the world is static then thats boring. Although my opinion is that River should get some kind of bigger than life,heroic agenda which'd match her super human levels. One could be revenge against her tormentors. Or leading a Rebellion against the Alliance. Her abilities are clearly too cool to neglect them and make her a regular character who just wants to get by by robbing banks and such.

Quote (FordStaff)
I think we can say for sure that whether River is any combination of --- asexual, heterosexual, homosexual, insane, less insane, sane, strange, normal --- given the framework of the series and movies this is a subject that would need to be handled masterfully and with finesse. That is not to say it was an immediate concern but past more than 2 seasons it should be a subject at some point.


Agreed!

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While I find this to be bleh , if River was to take a liking to any of the crew members in that way Mal would make the most sense.


Through we must note that every character from the crew has a very good reason to not play along or at least every character showed such behavior which indicates that if they ever accepted River as partner in a romantic relationship or even only agreed to have sex with her would make them extremely out of character. Strangely the only character I could imagine agreeing to have sex with her is Inara( but even for her there should be an extremely good reason).


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FordStaffDate: Monday, 21 Nov 2011, 21:22 | Message # 38
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Yes, Asari seemed stronger indeed. I think the Matriarch from ME 1 was one of the strongest and I think she was more powerful than Jack. Also Samara and the Justicars were not weak either. However Jakc's trick when she awakens from the cryo stasis and even the fact that she has to be contained that way showed that she is incredibly powerful( sadly the game mechanics made the player forget about that after the recruit mission)

I also remember that she killed every other biotic easily when she escaped from the research facility.


I think Jack is top ten, but beyond that I am not sure. She is more powerful than Samara was.
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Strangely the only character I could imagine agreeing to have sex with her is Inara( but even for her there should be an extremely good reason).


Inara was team mom, so I do not think I agree. Inara was the one who most acted like a mother towards River (well besides Simon who served every role possible along the caretaker spectrum ).

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Through we must note that every character from the crew has a very good reason to not play along or at least every character showed such behavior which indicates that if they ever accepted River as partner in a romantic relationship or even only agreed to have sex with her would make them extremely out of character.


Everyone except for Jayne, he is the only one who could reasonably accept River's advances. In fact it would be out of character for Jayne not to accept. This is ignoring the fact that Jayne's Heart of Gold was being developed throughout the series, but since the show did not last long enough to truly reveal this it is fair to do so. The only reason I could see him not doing it is to avoid negative reactions from the rest of the crew (Simon would be pissed, especially if River had just been acting crazy).

For the rest, way out of character: Wash and Zoe - Married , Mal - Honorable (of course then again Saffron overpowered that, so not impossible just unlikely) , Simon - Brother , Inara - Team mom , Book - Priest , Kaylee - probably not bi-sexual.

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Yes, things should change during the continuation, if the world is static then thats boring. Although my opinion is that River should get some kind of bigger than life,heroic agenda which'd match her super human levels. One could be revenge against her tormentors. Or leading a Rebellion against the Alliance. Her abilities are clearly too cool to neglect them and make her a regular character who just wants to get by by robbing banks and such.


I would have to disagree in part. Firefly defied typical space opera tendencies by having the characters problems be typical and something encountered daily by those in real life. That was part of the point. River would have the most personal problems to sort, possibly more than the entire rest of the crew combined into one.

I only disagree in part because clearly the crew was meant to accomplish things beyond just survival, but the show should also contain the everyday problems of being an insane mind reading child solider. I would not want the show to turn into River kicking ass and taking names only, not that it could not happen, but the show was never about that. The show at its core is about characters finding serenity within the chaos of the verse. That is what Mal searches for, That is what River needs. Would not want that to be forgotten.

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I felt that by the end of Serenity she was in pretty good shape actually so I think even in the immediate continuation she should be well enough to be a prominent member of the crew and she should definitely not fall apart in every minute.

We really do not know her shape is the problem. She was actually piloting the ship, so she must have gained the ability to remain lucid at least for decent periods. It could be interpreted many ways.

I refuse to believe she is completely cured of mental illness induced by brain damage and torture, but I would not want her to be in a fetal position yammering gibberish the entire show's run either. There would need to be a good balance of lingering damage and healing. Hard to tell if the movie ended it with a balance or not, it can be interpreted any which way, perhaps that was even intentional.


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BlaziusDate: Monday, 21 Nov 2011, 22:42 | Message # 39
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Everyone except for Jayne, he is the only one who could reasonably accept River's advances. In fact it would be out of character for Jayne not to accept. This is ignoring the fact that Jayne's Heart of Gold was being developed throughout the series, but since the show did not last long enough to truly reveal this it is fair to do so. The only reason I could see him not doing it is to avoid negative reactions from the rest of the crew (Simon would be pissed, especially if River had just been acting crazy).


Not likely. Jayne doesn't see River as a woman at all. He sees her as an annoying little child who he wants to get rid of and accumulate a large sum of money in the process. The way he speaks about her or even to her seems to indicate that he absolutely dismisses River as a potential sex partner even if she attempted something. He'd just laugh at her and say something in line of " Jayne doesn't sleep with kids, go find somebody in a kinder garden", he'd use the situation to insult her and get revenge for the past.






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FordStaffDate: Monday, 21 Nov 2011, 22:59 | Message # 40
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He'd just laugh at her and say something in line of " Jayne doesn't sleep with kids, go find somebody in a kinder garden", he'd use the situation to insult her and get revenge for the past.

While I would find this believable with Jayne, it is also true that he is a pig. It is not like it he shows much restraint, every-time there is an opportunity for Jayne to get sex he goes for it (the whores, Saffron, in Jaynestown). I would find it hard to believe he would not have sex with any females on the crew if they offered even River, but definitely the others. Being a pig is part of his character "Ill be in my bunk" .

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Not likely. Jayne doesn't see River as a woman at all. He sees her as an annoying little child who he wants to get rid of and accumulate a large sum of money in the process.


Why would he not want to accumulate some sex in the process also? Even if she is annoying, that has not stopped people in the past. Seeing her as a child may be a problem, but Jayne hardly has standards.


Keep Flying - Not much, but it's enough.

Message edited by FordStaff - Monday, 21 Nov 2011, 23:07
 
BlaziusDate: Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011, 00:23 | Message # 41
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While I would find this believable with Jayne, it is also true that he is a pig. It is not like it he shows much restraint, every-time there is an opportunity for Jayne to get sex he goes for it (the whores, Saffron, in Jaynestown). I would find it hard to believe he would not have sex with any females on the crew if they offered even River, but definitely the others. Being a pig is part of his character "Ill be in my bunk" .


The others maybe but not River. In fact in the case of the others I remember he made some remarks which indicates he is somewhat fascinated by them and sees them as a woman( like when Kaylee talks about she misses sex).
He never said anything like this about River.

Even his hate towards her is a clue, if he'd find River attractive in some way he'd be more polite towards her and he wouldn't try to sell her every time there is an opportunity. Also I think he fears from her and thinks she is too weird, and he'd think its some trick against him. It was not explored but I think he fears after Serenity even more from her, after she massacred the Reavers and beat up him.


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Inara was team mom, so I do not think I agree. Inara was the one who most acted like a mother towards River (well besides Simon who served every role possible along the caretaker spectrum ).


Hence I wrote that there needs to be a good reason and I could only imagine this included if there is an overwhelming fandom of a River-crew member pairing and they want to make a fan service relationship. Inara views sex more liberally, she is bisexual, and use it exclusively to give pleasure. If River would turn lesbian then she'd be willing to "help River explore her sexuality" or something and very gently "instruct" her maybe. This'd fit with her motherly personality too I think. Of course even this scenario is contrived and would be included absolutely only if every viewer started a demonstration that the writers must pair River with somebody from the crew or they refuse to watch the show otherwise.

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I would have to disagree in part. Firefly defied typical space opera tendencies by having the characters problems be typical and something encountered daily by those in real life. That was part of the point. River would have the most personal problems to sort, possibly more than the entire rest of the crew combined into one.

I only disagree in part because clearly the crew was meant to accomplish things beyond just survival, but the show should also contain the everyday problems of being an insane mind reading child solider. I would not want the show to turn into River kicking ass and taking names only, not that it could not happen, but the show was never about that. The show at its core is about characters finding serenity within the chaos of the verse. That is what Mal searches for, That is what River needs. Would not want that to be forgotten.


OK but Serenity was clearly a sign that the show would start to lean towards the higher agenda missions too, and the crew would turn big damn heroes and at least try to bring down the Alliance. Of course the personal stories should be very heavily in the show afterwards too but without a definable goal and true antagonist to bring down the show wouldn't last long. There are cardinal rules in storytelling especially for sci-fi which even Whedon must obey otherwise the viewers will surely lose interest.

Thats exactly what happened with SGU too.

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We really do not know her shape is the problem. She was actually piloting the ship, so she must have gained the ability to remain lucid at least for decent periods. It could be interpreted many ways.

I refuse to believe she is completely cured of mental illness induced by brain damage and torture, but I would not want her to be in a fetal position yammering gibberish the entire show's run either. There would need to be a good balance of lingering damage and healing. Hard to tell if the movie ended it with a balance or not, it can be interpreted any which way, perhaps that was even intentional.


She started to take active part in the life of the ship and even become pilot which requires you to be reliable and stable so I assumed that she is in a very good condition. She should never be normal I agree but she managed to remain sane even among the Reavers so she shouldn't be that easy to make hysterical again.

I think her being in a better condition she could show some awesome ways how she utilizes her abilities, more scheming and such. She should retain her awkward traits too like peeping and some cryptic remarks through. Also there should be extreme conditions when she becomes hysterical again but that should be fairly rare.


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FordStaffDate: Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011, 02:03 | Message # 42
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Even his hate towards her is a clue, if he'd find River attractive in some way he'd be more polite towards her and he wouldn't try to sell her every time there is an opportunity.


The hate has nothing to do with not being interested in River sexually. He has called her cute so he does find her attractive. The problem is that River is dangerous in many, many ways. Jayne is a simple thug, he does not want complications for the sake of doing the right thing (at least not until the character development that we only get glimpses of, and comes full force in the Movie). He hated both the Tams because they are a liability to his health directly and indirectly, and they also make his job harder to accomplish. If he can get money and get rid of them of course he will take it.

It is not as if Jayne is polite to the female crew members he is overtly attracted too. Asking Zoe to get naked to make a distraction is hardly polite or the way to get himself laid. In fact he is never shown to be polite to people in order to have sex. So far he has been shown to rely on either money (the whore), or fame (in jaynstown at least) for his sex.

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Also I think he fears from her and thinks she is too weird, and he'd think its some trick against him. It was not explored but I think he fears after Serenity even more from her, after she massacred the Reavers and beat up him.



Everyone would be afraid of River after Serenity it was already explored in "Objects In Space". How could you not be afraid of someone like that. I agree that River tempting Jayne could and should be interpreted as some sort of trick on Jayne, he is the only crew member that River has drawn blood from.

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Hence I wrote that there needs to be a good reason and I could only imagine this included if there is an overwhelming fandom of a River-crew member pairing and they want to make a fan service relationship. Inara views sex more liberally, she is bisexual, and use it exclusively to give pleasure. If River would turn lesbian then she'd be willing to "help River explore her sexuality" or something and very gently "instruct" her maybe. This'd fit with her motherly personality too I think. Of course even this scenario is contrived and would be included absolutely only if every viewer started a demonstration that the writers must pair River with somebody from the crew or they refuse to watch the show otherwise.

I would hope to god this would never happen, but I suppose there really is not much options with River.

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She should never be normal I agree but she managed to remain sane even among the Reavers so she shouldn't be that easy to make hysterical again.

I do not think so. River was hysterical every-time there were Reavers nearby, the only exception was when she started killing them all, and the way her fighting is represented it seems to be a trance where she is not really herself.

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I think her being in a better condition she could show some awesome ways how she utilizes her abilities, more scheming and such.


I am confident that River would show her skills more and more towards the end of the series run had it continued. It is important to note that story wise, River could never be in complete control or sane. She would be a Mary Sue that would swallow everything around her. For the show to be any good she would need to remain less than sane to at least some extent regardless of whether it would make sense or not.

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OK but Serenity was clearly a sign that the show would start to lean towards the higher agenda missions too, and the crew would turn big damn heroes and at least try to bring down the Alliance. Of course the personal stories should be very heavily in the show afterwards too but without a definable goal and true antagonist to bring down the show wouldn't last long. There are cardinal rules in storytelling especially for sci-fi which even Whedon must obey otherwise the viewers will surely lose interest.


You did not need the movie to know this, River's presence on the crew alone justifies the the view that the story would not remain about just keeping on flying forever (at least not in a literal sense). The important thing to remember is that the show is not about just the journey, more important is where the characters are.

If the show became a mess of politics and military battles it may lose sight of that. A straight up Rebels vs. Alliance would be a bad way to go, then it is not the characters that are important. The movie may have had the crew fighting the Alliance, but it was in a realistic way - they were not trying to topple the alliance completely. And the characters development and issues were still very important in the movie, they have the same problems as in the show.


Keep Flying - Not much, but it's enough.
 
KrelleKDate: Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011, 08:23 | Message # 43
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Inara was team mom, so I do not think I agree. Inara was the one who most acted like a mother towards River (well besides Simon who served every role possible along the caretaker spectrum ).


Yeah i too would prefer that Inara found together with the Captain, she is a good team mom as you called her happy
some good fanfics out there where she in a way ends up as the "team mom" as you called it happy
 
FordStaffDate: Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011, 08:30 | Message # 44
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Yeah i too would prefer that Inara found together with the Captain, she is a good team mom as you called her


Appropriately enough Captain Tightpants fits the role of team dad rather well.


Keep Flying - Not much, but it's enough.
 
Nomad79Date: Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011, 19:10 | Message # 45
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Yeah I think in the show Mal did have feelings for Inara, clearly evident, even though at times he was wrong in alot of things he thought of her.

For River to actually fall in love with another person despite all the surgieries and tests performed on her mind and almost destroying her very self. It would take time and alot of support from her family on Serenity. Simon working on new types of medication to help River find a balance. SHe would have to find an inner peace for herself. Inara seems the type to help River learn types of meditation techniques and ways to calm herself, remember River is still very child like and can like any other child throw fits. Mal and Jayne being the protective uncle types for her.

I'd say it would have to take a another person that's been through what she has, maybe another type of Alliance agent that was made into an assassian like her and sent out to retrieve her. He would later see the effects of what was done to her and question his own orders. In other words turn his back on the Alliance and join the crew. It would open up possiblities after he begins to get to know River better and gain the crew's trust.
 
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