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Summer-Glau.com Forum » Filmography » Terminator the Sarah Connor Chronicles » Theories about TSCC and Cameron's unsolved plots
Theories about TSCC and Cameron's unsolved plots
termi-ninja-torDate: Monday, 31 Oct 2011, 15:26 | Message # 46
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Quote (reiver)
the question is who build cameron?skynet or john henry(third faction) in the future?because on the last episode born to run we saw that john henry knew cameron and cameron knew john henry.....

I have tended to believe Cameron's statements. Perhaps I am too trusting, since she is an admitted liar.

I believed Cameron when she told John that she was a reprogrammed terminator and she was sent to protect him by future John.

I also believed Cameron when she told Allison that she had joined a group of terminators who were against the war. (We call it the Third Faction.)

With respect to John Henry, remember he was based on Andy Goode's Turk 2. And Turk 2 would not have been created until after Sarah Connor destroyed the first Turk by burning Andy's house. And Sarah could not have done that until after Cameron jumped her forward in the bank vault time jump.

Without Cameron's jump back to 1999, John Henry would not have been created. His creation was a byproduct of her mission. So Cameron could not have known John Henry in her future because John Henry would not have been created until after Cameron jumped back to 1999.

In Born to Run, John Henry said "I know you" to Cameron because he had been watching her on the surveillance cameras first at the Weaver house and later at the jail. He wanted to tell her that he knew she was a terminator and that she was friendly to the Connors. She said "I know you" back to him to tell him that she knew he was a terminator's body (remember Cromartie) and a member of the Third Faction because Ellison had communicated Weaver's question "Will you join us?" They were using the word "know" as in the sense of "know what you are," not in the sense of "I have met you before."


Message edited by termi-ninja-tor - Monday, 31 Oct 2011, 15:54
 
chrisdvanne_Date: Monday, 31 Oct 2011, 15:43 | Message # 47
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Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
I believed Cameron when she told John that she was a reprogrammed terminator and she was sent to protect him by future John. I believed Cameron when she told John that she was a reprogrammed terminator and she was sent to protect him by future John.

How could she have said to young John Connor : "i killed future you but i'm here to repair it" ?

Quote

I also believed Cameron when she told Allison that she had joined a group of terminators who were against the war. (We call it the Third Faction.)

I'm not sure but i think Jon Wirth or another writer admitted it was a lie (i guess it's on the DVD's commentaries).

I tend to agree with you about the meaning of "I know you"; though every scene on TSCC has a double meaning, like the eating scene between Derek and Cameron where they say the same sentence "I know you" ( i guess it's not a coincidence), or the famous 'love scene' on Born to Run. That's how Josh Friedman works and that's why there is many possible interpretations (not to mention the different timelines or the consequences of time travel).


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chrisdvanne_Date: Monday, 31 Oct 2011, 15:49 | Message # 48
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Quote (Nomad79)
ve been thinking about that...I think something went horribly wrong in the future and Cameron came back on her own to correct things between her and John, maybe there was a much bigger fallout with Jesse finding out about the proposed machine allience with the Cyborg Resistance. John might've been killed and the rouge Terminators decided to fight on thier own terms and the Resistance was just in the way.

Anyway, I'll post the first part of a new story in the TSCC fanfiction section soon that deals with this and why Cameron gave up her chip and possibly her life so that John Henry could travel to the future.

Thanks Nomad79!
As i said, i have not the talent and imagination to invente a whole story, but you have biggrin


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reiverDate: Monday, 31 Oct 2011, 16:15 | Message # 49
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Quote (michelangelo)
I'm not sure but i think Jon Wirth or another writer admitted it was a lie (i guess it's on the DVD's commentaries).


josh friedman said after the question of thomas dekker if she's lying about that and answer:i think she's lying!!!


i'm blind not deaf - IllidaN

Message edited by reiver - Monday, 31 Oct 2011, 16:18
 
BlaziusDate: Monday, 31 Oct 2011, 20:37 | Message # 50
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Quote (reiver)
josh friedman said after the question of thomas dekker if she's lying about that and answer:i think she's lying!!!


I think too that Cameron interrogated Alison on Skynets behalf. That she said she belonged to the Third faction was most likely an attempt to earn Alisons trust and thus her cooperation.

Besides I doubt that any faction other than Skynet had the technology, the industrial power and the resources(especially the rare coltan) to be able to build perfectly functioning terminators let alone more advanced ones like Cameron.

Quote (Nomad79)
I've been thinking about that...I think something went horribly wrong in the future and Cameron came back on her own to correct things between her and John, maybe there was a much bigger fallout with Jesse finding out about the proposed machine allience with the Cyborg Resistance. John might've been killed and the rouge Terminators decided to fight on thier own terms and the Resistance was just in the way.


I theorized something similar. Especially during the Jesse flashbacks in the Today is the Day episodes Johns absence is causing major unrest and panic among resistance members. The stronger ones like Jesse started to take things into their hands and started to mess up everything.

If John were able to show his face to them i'm sure he'd do it especially because in his whole life he was constantly reminded that without his charismatic presence the resistance will fail. So its perfectly logical that something serious happened that prevented him from showing up(his death sounds serious enough IMO)

So my theory is that Cameron accidentally killed John, tried to hide it by pretending that she is a messenger to John, the resistance members started to rebel because without Johns physical presence they either believe he is dead or just question his decisions. Then they find out the trick(or not), the resistance falls into complete disarray(maybe they don't care if John lives or not anymore), some members join the greys maybe and eventually Skynet wipes out the divided resistance form the face of the earth. Cameron somehow survives the fights and the vengeful resistance members(but Jesse and Riley is still after her, their dialogues indicate that they don't know about Cameron killing John rather they believe she corrupted him and he refuses to speak to humans and his decisions are irrational which indicates that Camerons trick worked but not well enough) and goes back in time to correct her mistakes.

BTW I think to escape retribution she was hid by the Third faction and thats why they are cooperating now.


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chrisdvanne_Date: Monday, 31 Oct 2011, 20:56 | Message # 51
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Quote (Blazius)
Besides I doubt that any faction other than Skynet had the technology, the industrial power and the resources(especially the rare coltan) to be able to build perfectly functioning terminators let alone more advanced ones like Cameron.

A potential Third faction doesn't necessary have to build the terminators, it just have to convert them to their views, or reprogram them just like JC did with the T's in the human resistance camps. I'm talking about classic models, not T1001.

I think Reiver is progressively coming to our views, Blazius, and termi-ninja-tor will fall shortly. Then we can start conquering the TSCC boards one by one. Our theory shall prevail.


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termi-ninja-torDate: Monday, 31 Oct 2011, 21:32 | Message # 52
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Somehow, I have a natural bias toward trusting Cameron, maybe because Summer is so honest looking. lol

Conversely, I can't say that I really trust Josh Friedman. I think he's lying! LOL

Quote (michelangelo)
A potential Third faction doesn't necessary have to build the terminators, it just have to convert them to their views, or reprogram them just like JC did with the T's in the human resistance camps. I'm talking about classic models, not T1001.

I always thought the Third Faction terminators were units who had made up their own minds about the war being bad. Maybe their intelligence had developed to the point where they realized it was undesirable for terminators to just be mindless killing machines. They wanted to stop Skynet and would consider joining the Resistance to achieve that goal.

In Cameron's and Jesse's future, they wanted to explore joining forces with the Resistance and wanted to send an ambassador to speak with John Connor, and Cameron was selected for the job. She had to get skinned like Allison in the hopes of getting close enough to John to begin the conversation. But she was captured and reprogrammed instead. Later, the Third Faction tried again with the LMT, but Jesse ruined those chances on the submarine. Ultimately, Cameron was sent back to protect young John and to destroy the Skynet predecessor AI (the first Turk) if possible, as well as help the Third Faction when called upon. (She succeeded in all three goals.)

After the first Turk was destroyed, Andy Goode made Turk 2 which became Skynet in Weaver term's future. In this future, Jesse supported Queeg against the crew on the sub, and the LMT was delivered successfully to John Connor. They struck a deal and the Third Faction allied with the Resistance. As a result, the Resistance sent LMT Weaver term back in time to prevent Turk 2 from developing into their Skynet. She succeeded by gaining possession of Turk 2 and making it into John Henry.
 
chrisdvanne_Date: Monday, 31 Oct 2011, 22:30 | Message # 53
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Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
She had to get skinned like Allison in the hopes of getting close enough to John to begin the conversation.

I agree with most of what you said but not with that part; the Cameron who killed Allison was not a member of the 3rd faction. Killing someone chosen by JC is not the best way to start an alliance don't you think?

Other hints something bad happened to future John :

Quote (TSCC s02ep17 'Ourselves Alones')
John : Why would i want to kill you?
Cameron : You might have to some day.

Of course, Cameron is talking about her glitch from s02ep01'Samson and Delilah', but maybe also about the fact she killed future him (remember Friedman likes double-meaning).

Quote (TSCC s02ep19 'Today is the day part 2')
Derek : We're always watching.
John : for me to make a mistake.
Derek : For you to be human

If Cameron killed JC and took charge of the Resistance, her decisions as a leader would not look human for sure, hence the disagreement among the resistance.

To tell the truth, i'm not 100% sure Cameron killed future John; even if this has my preference, another possibility is that JC had to risk his life for Cameron and/or make people killed ("good people" said Jesse) in order to save her (in the battlefield or from other humans).
The main hint that it could be this version and not Cameron killing him is as follow (but at the end Cameron had to run away from the future in both cases) :

Quote (TSCC s02ep2 'Automatic for the People')

Cameron : You can't be trusted anymore.
John : Me, i can't be trusted anymore?
Cameron : You risked your life to fix me. That was a very dangerous thing to do. That could upset people.
John : They'll have to deal with it.
Cameron : Not them.

"Not them." is refering to the Human Resistance of course.


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termi-ninja-torDate: Monday, 31 Oct 2011, 23:00 | Message # 54
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Quote (michelangelo)
Killing someone chosen by JC is not the best way to start an alliance don't you think?

Allison was no longer useful to Cameron. In addition, Allison had tried to sabotage Cameron's mission by lying to her about the bracelet, thereby declaring herself an enemy of Cameron's.

The LMT on the sub killed crewmember Goodnow right away, but might still have been considering allying with the Resistance.

It seemed to me that the Third Faction initially had a terminator's view of human life and would not change until after the official formation of an alliance with the Resistance.

Quote (michelangelo)
John : Why would i want to kill you?
Cameron : You might have to some day.
Of course, Cameron is talking about her glitch from s02ep01'Samson and Delilah', but maybe also about the fact she killed future him

Cameron would not want to tell John that she killed future John. Any possible double meaning would be purely coincidental and unintentional. I would resist reading too much from this.
Quote (michelangelo)
Cameron : You can't be trusted anymore.
John : Me, i can't be trusted anymore?
Cameron : You risked your life to fix me. That was a very dangerous thing to do. That could upset people.
John : They'll have to deal with it.
Cameron : Not them.

"Not them." is refering to the Human Resistance of course.

I agree Cameron is referring to people in the future like Jesse and Dietz, who consider John to be too willing to accept the help of reprogrammed terminators. If they found out that John risked his life to reactivate any chip-damaged terminator, they would clearly be upset.


Message edited by termi-ninja-tor - Monday, 31 Oct 2011, 23:01
 
reiverDate: Monday, 31 Oct 2011, 23:02 | Message # 55
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Quote (michelangelo)
To tell the truth, i'm not 100% sure Cameron killed future John; even if this has my preference, another possibility is that JC had to risk his life for Cameron and/or make people killed ("good people" said Jesse) in order to save her (in the battlefield or from other humans).
The main hint that it could be this version and not Cameron killing him is as follow (but at the end Cameron had to run away from the future in both cases) :


i think michelangelo progressively coming close to my view and termi-ninja-tor biggrin :D

Quote (michelangelo)
Of course, Cameron is talking about her glitch from s02ep01'Samson and Delilah', but maybe also about the fact she killed future him (remember Friedman likes double-meaning).


she's talking and for the glich and the problem with the hand. about the problem with the hand i think is something like emotion perhaps anger (especially with riley)???and sarah in one scene i remember who doesn't let her go to find john??


i'm blind not deaf - IllidaN
 
chrisdvanne_Date: Monday, 31 Oct 2011, 23:20 | Message # 56
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Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
Cameron would not want to tell John that she killed future John. Any possible double meaning would be purely coincidental and unintentional. I would resist reading too much from this.

What???
This scene and the love scene from season finale is way too much to be a simple coincidence.

Quote (Born To Run)
John : So down deep, you want to kill me.
Cameron : Yes, i do.
John : Then why don't you.
Cameron : I might some day.


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reiverDate: Monday, 31 Oct 2011, 23:38 | Message # 57
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this two conversations from this two scenes are reasonable for me....

in the first is because cameron shes afraid being bad again thats why she give the clock to john!!!

and in the second explains that she still have the command to kill john somewhere down deep!!!

i dont think that is a criteria from this two conversations that cameron killed john in the future...!!!!my opinion ofcourse!!!


i'm blind not deaf - IllidaN
 
BlaziusDate: Tuesday, 01 Nov 2011, 01:13 | Message # 58
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Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
In Cameron's and Jesse's future, they wanted to explore joining forces with the Resistance and wanted to send an ambassador to speak with John Connor, and Cameron was selected for the job. She had to get skinned like Allison in the hopes of getting close enough to John to begin the conversation. But she was captured and reprogrammed instead. Later, the Third Faction tried again with the LMT, but Jesse ruined those chances on the submarine. Ultimately, Cameron was sent back to protect young John and to destroy the Skynet predecessor AI (the first Turk) if possible, as well as help the Third Faction when called upon. (She succeeded in all three goals.)


No, I think Cameron was definitely sent to Johns camp skinned as Alison in order to kill John. Remember the councilor scenes in Alison from Palmdale?

In her glichy state Cameron was very honest with everybody as it seems even blowing up her cover completely and she said that she wants to kill him. She said everything partly based on her memories of her first mission, so its pretty clear that she said that she wants to kill John because that was her original goal.

Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
I always thought the Third Faction terminators were units who had made up their own minds about the war being bad. Maybe their intelligence had developed to the point where they realized it was undesirable for terminators to just be mindless killing machines. They wanted to stop Skynet and would consider joining the Resistance to achieve that goal.


On the contrary I always assumed that Cameron was under construction during the interrogations. Lines like the "Your hair, its so pretty. We work very hard on the hair to do it right" one shows that they were fine tuning the infiltration methods.

Also Camerons endoskeleton looks like a very specialized one having Alison like tiny body to be able mimic her. Her parameters had to match exactly Alisons so they had to build a new machine from scratch for this precise purpose for which only Skynet has the knowledge and resources.

Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
I agree Cameron is referring to people in the future like Jesse and Dietz, who consider John to be too willing to accept the help of reprogrammed terminators. If they found out that John risked his life to reactivate any chip-damaged terminator, they would clearly be upset.


It still doesn't mean she didn't kill him. Maybe it was an earlier event which only helped raising the paranoia after John is gone not causing it entirely.

Quote (michelangelo)
If Cameron killed JC and took charge of the Resistance, her decisions as a leader would not look human for sure, hence the disagreement among the resistance.


This makes perfectly sense again and would make for a cool story twist for sure. John being too "machinelike" bugged me too. Why didn't John told the submarine crew about the alliance? He, a charismatic leader ,the savior of humanity would have enough credit so others would trust his decision or at least he'd try if he knows others distrusting him already.

On the other hand Cameron would simply reason like "Its not their job to know things but to finish the task"

Quote (michelangelo)
To tell the truth, i'm not 100% sure Cameron killed future John; even if this has my preference, another possibility is that JC had to risk his life for Cameron and/or make people killed ("good people" said Jesse) in order to save her (in the battlefield or from other humans).
The main hint that it could be this version and not Cameron killing him is as follow (but at the end Cameron had to run away from the future in both cases) :


This ignores the fact completely that he disappeared seemingly without reason. Also as I said earlier the saving of Cameron could be an earlier event. Maybe after she failed her assassination the others insisted to destroy her but John refused?


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Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!


Message edited by Blazius - Tuesday, 01 Nov 2011, 01:17
 
chrisdvanne_Date: Tuesday, 01 Nov 2011, 01:49 | Message # 59
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Quote (Blazius)
This ignores the fact completely that he disappeared seemingly without reason. Also as I said earlier the saving of Cameron could be an earlier event. Maybe after she failed her assassination the others insisted to destroy her but John refused?

As i said, the "Cameron killed future John" version has my preference; i have given enough quotes/proof from TSCC so that this version would be taken seriously.

Another quote : Why Cameron tried so hard to hide the alliance proposal with the t1001 from young JC ? Why was she so pissed off when James Ellison mentioned "will you join us" in front of JC (in 'Born to Run')?


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termi-ninja-torDate: Tuesday, 01 Nov 2011, 05:49 | Message # 60
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Quote (Blazius)
No, I think Cameron was definitely sent to Johns camp skinned as Alison in order to kill John. Remember the councilor scenes in Alison from Palmdale?

In her glichy state Cameron was very honest with everybody as it seems even blowing up her cover completely and she said that she wants to kill him. She said everything partly based on her memories of her first mission, so its pretty clear that she said that she wants to kill John because that was her original goal.

During Allison from Palmdale, we saw three levels of Cameron. For a while she was Allison Young who did not remember being a terminator. Later on, she transitioned to her original terminator programming. That's when she said she wanted to put John's head on a pike. Finally, after John entered Jody's parents' house, Cameron recovered to her normal "reprogrammed" Cameron Phillips state, where she was a protector, not a killer of John Connor.

Quote (Blazius)
Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
I always thought the Third Faction terminators were units who had made up their own minds about the war being bad. Maybe their intelligence had developed to the point where they realized it was undesirable for terminators to just be mindless killing machines. They wanted to stop Skynet and would consider joining the Resistance to achieve that goal.

On the contrary I always assumed that Cameron was under construction during the interrogations. Lines like the "Your hair, its so pretty. We work very hard on the hair to do it right" one shows that they were fine tuning the infiltration methods.

I agree Cameron was being skinned during her interrogations of Allison. Clearly, Cameron had made up her mind about being with the Third Faction before that time, during the months or years that she was walking around as just an endoskeleton.

Quote (Blazius)
Also Camerons endoskeleton looks like a very specialized one having Alison like tiny body to be able mimic her. Her parameters had to match exactly Alisons so they had to build a new machine from scratch for this precise purpose for which only Skynet has the knowledge and resources.

I never thought Cameron's endoskeleton was highly specialized or unique. I think it had proportions that were close to average for a human female, as a model that could be used to emulate a human female. There may have been many of them. For example, Rosie the Pretzel Girl terminator was a similar size and build. Rosie and Cameron looked like the same endoskeleton as they mirrored each other entering Dr. Sherman's office building.

[edit add] Note that Summer's height is listed as 5 feet 6.5 inches, which is actually a little above average -- average height for an adult woman in the United States is 5 feet 3.8 inches. (And presumably, Allison is the same height as Summer. lol Based on this, I would guess that Cameron's height is close to Allison's height.)

One of the reasons Allison was picked as an emulation subject could have been her size and build -- a good match for Cameron's model terminator's endoskeleton.


Message edited by termi-ninja-tor - Tuesday, 01 Nov 2011, 05:57
 
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