Date: Saturday, 18 Aug 2012, 12:12 | Message # 363
I have a question about the theory of Cameron killing John Connor -- in the episode 106 Dungeons & Dragons, during his near-death flashback, Derek is summoned by Cameron to meet John Connor in the TDE bubble room. So it seems at this stage that John is still alive, agreed? Unless Derek imagined the whole encounter with Future John and it's just a false memory.
So to me it seems the possibilities are:
1. Cameron glitched and killed John at a later date 2. Someone else (whether human or Terminator) killed John at a later date 3. Cameron in 2007 actually comes from a different timeline to Derek's -- Cameron comes from Jesse's timeline, where John Connor was already dead by that stage (whether at Cameron's hand or someone else's). Chola: "We lose everybody we love."
Date: Saturday, 18 Aug 2012, 12:23 | Message # 364
Also, if something happened to John Connor in the future and he is dead, then both Cameron and General Perry (plus others in the inner circle) are in on the secret. There's no way General Perry wouldn't know. Chola: "We lose everybody we love."
Date: Saturday, 18 Aug 2012, 12:24 | Message # 365
Thank you for necro-bumping this thread 44sunsets and welcome to the Summer Glau Wiki (additionally, you can say a few words of introduction in the dedicated thread : http://summer-glau.com/forum/12-161-1 )
I don't like the explanations based on different timelines : firstly because i don't master that concept and secondly because it's lazy writing from TSCC's writers to justify something by using this. I prefer to follow a logical, well-constructed explanation, based on hints voluntary left by the writers.
1) and 2) are basically the same for me. Wether Cameron killed John with her own hands or got him killed because of his involvement with her, leads to the same conclusion : Cameron being send (presumably sending herself) in the past to fix mistakes from the future. You can also find me on Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr or Youtube
Date: Saturday, 18 Aug 2012, 12:31 | Message # 366
Also, if something happened to John Connor in the future and he is dead, then both Cameron and General Perry (plus others in the inner circle) are in on the secret. There's no way General Perry wouldn't know.
My understanding of Perry's and later Jesses's own words is that future John is not talking with anyone, including Perry but that is debatable and the writers could have decided to let him know that John is dead and use him to facilitate Cameron's return in the past. You can also find me on Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr or Youtube
Date: Saturday, 18 Aug 2012, 13:34 | Message # 367
Thanks for the welcome chrisdvanne, I've posted a message in the intro thread now.
I think the "Cameron killed Future John" theory appeals to me because it uses the tragic starcrossed lovers motif. Personally, I don't think Cameron and Future John were lovers, but they must've been close.
I think this changes after Cameron travels into the past and meets young John. The glitch from the car bomb explosion has awakened and expanded her machine horizons, but paradoxically it's also made her a threat to John. I think the most poignant moment is when she gives the remote detonator locket to John -- she's placing her life in his hands. For an artificial intelligence, that is an extraordinary step, and concrete proof of the love she has developed for him.
In "Born to Run", when Chola says her parting words, “We lose everybody that we love”, it is a clear omen of things to come.
After Ellison delivers the message from Weaver ("Will you join us?"), Cameron knows what she has to do. John Henry has no functioning chip, and Skynet has modified all subsequent Terminator chips to self-combust when exposed to the atmosphere, rendering them useless. Cameron decides at that point that she has to make the ultimate sacrifice. As John notes, she is visibly upset — because (unbeknownst to him) she is facing her own death. When Cameron gives her chip to John Henry and mind-melds with him, there is no guarantee that she will ever be back.
Cameron conceals her plan from John, knowing that he would never agree to it.
Sitting on his bed, she watches over him one last time as Protector and guardian, in the same way his mother Sarah did at the start of the series, knowing that their world is about to be turned upside-down. The saga has come full-circle, and they will once again be On The Run.
I'm a die-hard romantic so I think the "Born to Run" finale is the ultimate expression of John's love for Cameron, and her love for him. Metaphysically, Cameron dies for John -- both to fulfill the mission of assisting John Henry and the Cyborg Resistance, and thus hopefully defeat Skynet, and also to protect John by, in effect, self-terminating and removing the threat she poses to him.
Mr Murch’s earlier explanation of John Henry’s downtime makes it clear that going offline is not an experience to be taken lightly by an artificial intelligence — indeed, to the most advanced neural learning system on Earth, it is the equivalent of death. When John is about to remove Cameron's chip against her will in Episode 201 "Samson & Delilah", she is genuinely terrified of her impending death -- I think more so, because there is no guarantee that they will "resurrect" her and put the chip back in later. I choose to believe that she was telling the truth at that point when she cried out that she loved him.
In Zeira Corp’s basement, Cameron’s final words "I'm sorry John" are a poignant suicide note of sorts — an apology for deceiving and abandoning him. John suffers yet another loss of a loved one.
John then demonstrates his love for Cameron by giving his life in return: when he arrives in the future, nobody seems to know him, it's as if he never existed. He died, and is resurrected. The hero is reborn.
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." — John 15:13
Cameron and John’s fates are intertwined — the same way Savannah Weaver’s fate may one day depend on John Henry, John Connor’s fate may likewise depend on Cameron.
This is why I think the ending in "Born to Run" is so exquisitely beautiful. John has lost so much, but he has also gained hope.
Even in the first season, John has faith in Cameron when Derek snatches her chip after she takes down ARTIE in Episode 108 "Vick's Chip" Derek: I want you to hear this in no uncertain terms. Someday one of these things is gonna kill you. John: It's not gonna be this one.
I'm perfectly willing to entertain the possibility that either Cameron OR someone else killed Future John. If someone else did it (possibly a human), then I think Cameron blames herself for allowing it to happen, and feels she must atone for this mistake. I also like the theory I read here that Cameron's association with John triggered someone else to assassinate John, out of contempt/hatred for machines and "metal lovers". Cameron would feel that she "killed" John by being close to him.
What's intriguing to me is that in the future, Cameron wears a leg holster carrying (presumably) her favourite Glock 17 pistol, which seems to be exclusively for use against humans. I think in the future, John faces a variety of threats, both metal and human, both from relative strangers as well as those close to him. I chose to see this as another reason why he has chosen to shut himself off from the world.
Another theory of mine to explain John isolation is that he suffers from PTSD and can't deal with losing any more people that he is close to. He knows loss, intimately. So this helps explain his reliance on metal to carry out certain missions. Chola: "We lose everybody we love."
Date: Saturday, 18 Aug 2012, 13:53 | Message # 368
Another thing that lends credence to the "A human assassinated Future John" theory is the fact that Cameron is so hostile against Riley. She knows through firsthand experience the danger that scheming humans can pose to John. Cameron would've certainly killed Jesse if she had encountered her in 2007-2008.
I think Future John Connor almost certainly faced internal dissent from some members of the Resistance. Jesse was probably just the tip of the iceberg. If I remember right, Derek tells John in 2007 that Future John isn't popular with everyone, that he sometimes has to make difficult choices.
This also helps explain Captain Queeg brutally and summarily executing Lt Dietze by cracking his skull against the wall -- Queeg is privvy to secret information and hidden orders. Perhaps he is also one of John's inner circle who knows what really happened. Chola: "We lose everybody we love."
Date: Saturday, 18 Aug 2012, 14:08 | Message # 369
Reference Post 367:
Thanks for posting this. Your observations are really interesting and I freely admit that they had never occurred to me. Cameron placing her life in John's hands, seeing her own demise, finally being able to commit suicide - yes, it all makes perfect sense. If you are going through Hell, keep going.
Date: Saturday, 18 Aug 2012, 19:59 | Message # 370
I've been re-watching Season 1 and I just love the Sarah voiceovers, like this series from "Vick's Chip":
Sarah VO: All of us wear masks. They can be worn out of love and the desire to remain close to those around us, to spare them from the complicated reality of our frayed psyches. Sarah VO: We trade honesty for companionship. Sarah VO: And in the process, never truly know the hearts closest to us. ... Sarah VO: So much danger in this world is hidden behind masks. We tell our children stories of good and evil, while knowing it's not that simple. Sarah VO: True evil doesn't give us time to fight. Or to be afraid. We keep our heads down, never bothering to look behind the masks. And in doing so, we resign ourselves to terrible fates we can never see coming.
The last chilling voiceover is heard as we see the Vick T-888 strangle Barbara Chamberlain in the shower.
I interpret Sarah's words as an omen of Derek and Jesse's treachery in Season 2 (Derek, because he knew part of what Jesse was up to, but kept it secret). I also see it as a hint that someone close to John will betray and kill him in the future.
However, aside from Sarah, Cameron is the only one who has not betrayed John -- she lies and keeps secrets from him, but she does it to protect him. I think Cameron is the only genuine and loyal friend that John has -- so I think she doesn't fit the "true evil" moniker. Besides, machines don't qualify as pure evil to me -- that's something reserved for the human domain. As Cameron says, "We're not built to be cruel."
Sarah says that "We tell our children stories of good and evil, while knowing it's not that simple" -- to me, this implies that John's death comes not at the hands of our stereotypical monster (i.e. a Terminator) but someone human -- someone truly evil, perhaps a Charles Fischer/Grays type character.
I'm very biased of course since I hate unhappy endings, and Cameron killing John would be ultimate downer for me
On a different note, I was just reading the Wikia entry for Charles Fischer, and then it occurred to me: after Cameron rescues Derek from the Kaliba kidnappers in Episode 220 "To The Lighthouse", she gives a thinly veiled excuse for coming to his aid (I think she did it for altruistic reasons):
Derek: Why did you come after me? Cameron: You know the location of the safe house. John's location. If they tortured you... Derek: That would never happen. Cameron: It has before.
This puzzled me deeply, as I didn't recall seeing a scene where Derek was tortured for information, aside from (possibly) the mysterious house with the Chopin music in the basement. I'm inclined to think Skynet were doing things like harvesting blood instead of just torturing them for information though. I don't think Derek or the other fighters gave up the bunker's location, otherwise they would've been more obviously wracked with guilt, and it didn't seem like they were.
Then it struck me: in Episode 209 "Complications", Derek doesn't recall the torture that Jesse claims he suffered at the hands of Charles Fischer:
Charles Fischer: Tell me about the bunker. Jesse: Just to break you down, just to get to your in-- Charles Fischer: Tell me the location, please. Jesse: To get to you. Charles Fischer: Tell me the location. Derek: How'd you get out? Jesse: I don't know. You never told me. Derek: What? Jesse: [sighs] It wasn't me Fischer had, baby. It was you.
This leads Derek to believe that Jesse comes from a different timeline than him. I'm thinking this is the timeline where Derek gave up the information about the bunker's location, during his interrogation by Fischer.
So the intriguing question is, does Cameron in fact come from Jesse's timeline?
Cameron claimed not to recognise Charles Fischer during the hilariously curt telephone exchange she had with Derek, when he sent her his picture. But I always felt it was implied that she was lying and hiding something, probably to protect John -- she was too dismissive.
So if Cameron did come from Jesse's timeline, why would she lie about Charles Fischer? How would NOT pursuing Fischer protect John, or otherwise be advantageous in the fight against Skynet? It makes my head spin!
 Cameron also knows about Jesse's miscarriage, which Derek didn't seem to know about. Possibly another hint that Cameron comes from Jesse's timeline. Of course, it's also possible that Jesse was pregnant and miscarried in both timelines. Chola: "We lose everybody we love."
Message edited by 44sunsets - Friday, 24 Aug 2012, 19:16
In support of what you are saying, I agree that Cameron was probably in the basement. I always thought that the music was a marker to indicate that it was her. She was in the basement where they were probably harvesting genetic material and she used the music when she danced at the end of an episode (the one in which the Russian ballet teacher and her brother were killed). Why she would have been listening to the music in the basement or whether or not she had the Allison Young sheath yet, I don't know.
As to Fischer and his teaching sessions, I recall seeing about eight terminators in the audience of observers that Fischer spoke to. I can't be sure but one of them appears to be shorter than the others. I wondered if that was possibly Cameron, before her sheath, and perhaps that is why she was able to say that Derek was not able to resist torture. I think too, considering what you have said, that Cameron would have come from the timeline where Jessie came from as she was aware of Jessie and she was aware of the torture that Derek had suffered whereas Derek had no memory of the torture. If you are going through Hell, keep going.
Reading through the latest post on this topic and I must say everyone has provided some interesting points. It never occurred to me before, but I believe that you are correct. Cameron and Jesse must have come from the same timeline.
As for whether or not Cameron went into the future or was in the basement (Born to Run), I’m inclined to believe that she went into the future. The reason for saying this comes from the audio commentary from Friedman (I believe he was talking). He stated that when John had cut Cameron open to feel her power supply Friedman stated that she did it because she wanted to make sure John knew that she was a machine and that he was in love with a machine. Friedman also stated that she wanted John to follow her to the future knowing fully what she was (a machine). This is paraphrased of course. Than prior to John jumping to the future he states, “He’s got her chip, he’s got HER”. Reiterating that he understands what he is going after. A machine that he loves.
Message edited by RNBM - Monday, 20 Aug 2012, 18:38
Josh Friedman blows my "Cameron commits suicide" theory away, egads
I still think the John + Cameron bed scene is powerfully symbolic in that she shows him she doesn't have a real heart -- she has a machine heart (power source)... yet, like the Tin Man in "Wonderful Wizard of Oz", she can be the most emotional and tender-hearted out of all of John's companions.
Ok, so I hate to go back and forth but Cameron probably didn't commit suicide. Her directive held and she probably co-existed with John Henry.
Agreed, Josh's commentary confirms this. I think Josh's explanation is a bit thin though... he implies that Cameron wants John to follow her into the future after mind-melding with John Henry, but if that's the case why does Cameron need to give him an emotional goodbye?
My only explanation for this is that Cameron doesn't expect to see John for a while, she and JH must be embarking on some epic solo mission. Yet John must play a vital role in this somehow at some point.
Why she would have been listening to the music in the basement or whether or not she had the Allison Young sheath yet, I don't know.
I'm thinking Derek's "torture" in the mysterious basement took place concurrently or shortly after Allison's interrogation and death at Cameron's hands. The Chopin music ties them together.
It still bugs me that we don't know exactly what happened in that basement.
As to Fischer and his teaching sessions, I recall seeing about eight terminators in the audience of observers that Fischer spoke to. I can't be sure but one of them appears to be shorter than the others. I wondered if that was possibly Cameron, before her sheath, and perhaps that is why she was able to say that Derek was not able to resist torture.
I think that's a strong possibility. It seems to be implied that Cameron knows from first-hand experience that Derek gave in to interrogation.
Cameron claims her memories were scrubbed during the Resistance reprogramming, but perhaps she was lying about that, or the memories weren't wiped thoroughly, since she seems to recall quite a bit about Allison Young.
But then I read somewhere that Josh Friedman stated that Cameron's recall of what happened with Allison isn't necessarily what actually happened -- i.e. Cameron's imagination might've mixed some things up?
 Jesse Daro's excellent TSSC fanfics propose a really interesting concept: that Skynet was working on making even more human-like Terminator infiltrators. One way to achieve this was to make Terminators that think they're human (i.e. they don't realise that they are machines). Then, when they get to their target, a specific routine is triggered and they "wake up" to terminate their target.
This sort of ties in with Marcus in Terminator Salvation as well. So my question is, what if Cameron was originally the first protoype of this new Skynet "secret weapon", a Terminator that thinks it's actually human (Allison Young)? Would explain her bizarre memories and human-like behaviour in "Allison from Palmdale" (removal of HUD, etc). Potential fanfic material there. Chola: "We lose everybody we love."
Message edited by 44sunsets - Wednesday, 22 Aug 2012, 13:27