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Summer-Glau.com Forum » Filmography » Terminator the Sarah Connor Chronicles » Theories about TSCC and Cameron's unsolved plots
Theories about TSCC and Cameron's unsolved plots
chrisdvanneDate: Sunday, 08 Jan 2012, 17:07 | Message # 316
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Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
After they arrived in 2007 and after the pilot episode, Sarah found Andy Goode with the help of Derek's team's photos and Tarissa Dyson's memory. Sarah destroyed the first Turk, which would have won the chess tournament and become Skynet, by burning Andy's house, but he made the Turk 2, which would have won the tournament also. But Weaver term eventually got Turk 2 and made it into John Henry.

Precisely, nor Andy Goode, nor Derek's team, or any plot quoted were shown or even mentioned in the pilot. The only elements evoked in the pilot are Cromartie's head jumping in time with the Connors and meeting Charley; but even that are not a story arc, they are just bases for building story arcs.

Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
So, I would say that the story arc of Sarah's initial attempt to destroy Skynet was introduced in the pilot.

Do you have a less vague plot please? This is not a plot or a story arc you're describing but a vague pitch for the Terminator franchise.



Pilot :
Cameron : "In the future you have many friends"

Later TSCC episodes :
Cameron : "Being Jonh Connor can be lonely"
Various resistance fighters : "JC was talking to anyone, just her"


PILOT is NON CANON

You could always find a complicated way to justify this variation (like you or someone else did btw) but this would be trying to fool yourself and the readers while Blazius and i are basing our reasoning on CURRENT LINES from TSCC; that doesn't mean that our interpretation is more correct than yours or others but at least we're not presuming things out of nowhere.

Side note : please termi-ninja-tor, don't think Blazius or myself are fanatics; we're just trying to expose our theory based on tangible lines from TSCC, nothing personal in it.


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Message edited by chrisdvanne - Sunday, 08 Jan 2012, 17:22
 
chrisdvanneDate: Sunday, 08 Jan 2012, 17:17 | Message # 317
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Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
I think of Cromartie as a terminator with an endoskeleton who wears two different skins during the series. His first skin looked like Owain Yeoman but we saw that skin burned off in the bank vault. After the pilot, Cromartie is seen without any skin as he gets the blood scientist to help him reskin. After he visits the plastic surgeon, we see him skinned like George Laszlo, played by Garret Dillahunt. This is all quite consistent with what Cromartie is. There is no reason to consider his initial skinning as Owain Yeoman to be non-canon. Why would you consider it non-canon, just because it is in the pilot? Do you also choose to say that the bank vault time jump did not happen?

You're right, my remark about Chromartie was more ironic than a perfect reasoning.
But i don't pretend the events in the pilot, like the bank vault time jump, did not happen; what i'm saying is that the pilot doesn't introduce to the audience any story arc.
All the more that noone noticed the cut head jumping in the time bubble in the future (correct me if i'm wrong). The audience discovered that the head went through in later episodes and even at the time, fans were wondereing how a piece of the endoskeleton could go through.

I totally agree with Blazius's explanation of a retconed episode, which the pilot is obviously.


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BlaziusDate: Monday, 09 Jan 2012, 05:38 | Message # 318
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Quote (chrisdvanne)
I totally agree with Blazius's explanation of a retconed episode, which the pilot is obviously.


I really hope we all can agree at least in that. If TSCCs pilot is not a retconned episode then I'm Josh Friedman( and no, I'm not him or at least I don't know about it) wacko


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termi-ninja-torDate: Monday, 09 Jan 2012, 06:45 | Message # 319
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Quote (chrisdvanne)
This is not a plot or a story arc you're describing but a vague pitch for the Terminator franchise.


It would not have been reasonable to describe the whole story arc in detail at the very beginning. In the pilot, the Connors had a choice of jumping for escape purposes or jumping for both escape and hunting Skynet, and they chose the latter. You may consider it vague but the vagueness does not disqualify it from being the beginning of the story arc.

Quote (chrisdvanne)
You could always find a complicated way to justify this variation (like you or someone else did btw) but this would be trying to fool yourself

As you say, it is possible to justify the variation with a range of explanations. And such explanations could be legitimate opinions of those who express them. They are not necessarily attempts "to fool" anyone. For example, I am sure you have heard the expression "it is lonely at the top" which could refer to some prominent leaders. And yet such leaders would also be considered to have many friends. I also think future John was probably always in fear of being assassinated by Skynet agents, both infiltrator terminators as well as human "grays." Accordingly, it would make sense for him to limit his public exposure, including having a designated spokesperson like Cameron.

Quote (chrisdvanne)
please termi-ninja-tor, don't think Blazius or myself are fanatics; we're just trying to expose our theory based on tangible lines from TSCC, nothing personal in it.

I find your point of view interesting and thought provoking. As a result, I have spent some time thinking about what the series would be saying if I were to omit the pilot episode. Certianly it would be different.

I do not consider you fanatics, just fellow observers who have formed different opinions. I welcome the diversity of opinions. My concern is more about anyone's insistence that other opinions are "wrong." I would not characterize such judgmental proclamations as "fanaticism" but I have a harsher and less forgiving word to describe such intolerance of the legitimate opinions of others. I will not express my word because it would be rude and out of line for this gentle wiki.

Personally, I have always regarded the pilot as canon in its entirety. So far, even after a bit of reflection, this discussion has not convinced me to change my mind. In all honesty, I hold my beliefs very strongly, probably as strongly as you hold yours. You may think of me just as being more circumspect in my style of expression.
 
kaoticDate: Monday, 09 Jan 2012, 16:07 | Message # 320
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Quote (chrisdvanne)
Pilot :
Cameron : "In the future you have many friends"

Later TSCC episodes :
Cameron : "Being Jonh Connor can be lonely"
Various resistance fighters : "JC was talking to anyone, just her"


John did have friends. He had Derek, Kyle, Perry, Cameron, and probably a bunch of others. But having friends and being lonely is two completely different things. Future John probably didn't have someone he could love romantically (besides Cameron). He was alone because Skynet wanted him dead and that kind of makes finding a partner hard.

Jesse actually doesn't know that he never talked to anyone. Realistically, there is no way that John was only talking to just Cameron. He would have to talk to his other Generals and staff so he could coordinate the war. And you have to remmeber Jesse was trying to get Derek on her side.

There is nothing in the pilot that has been retconned. It is a introduction episode just like all other pilot episodes. What happened in the episode is canon.

Quote
l the more that noone noticed the cut head jumping in the time bubble in the future (correct me if i'm wrong). The audience discovered that the head went through in later episodes and even at the time, fans were wondereing how a piece of the endoskeleton could go through.


As for the head, it actually went through when they did. Watch episode 1x04.


Message edited by kaotic - Monday, 09 Jan 2012, 16:11
 
BlaziusDate: Monday, 09 Jan 2012, 18:34 | Message # 321
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Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
Personally, I have always regarded the pilot as canon in its entirety.


Camerons behavior change and a bunch of contradictions eek ?

Seriously you are not only questioning the story of the show but even well known canon policies and practices now......


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chrisdvanneDate: Monday, 09 Jan 2012, 19:48 | Message # 322
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Quote (kaotic)
As for the head, it actually went through when they did. Watch episode 1x04.

The head jumping in time with the Connors is actually one of the few things that were planned by the writers and that will effectively serve a story line in the later episodes; i'm just saying that noone noticed it (unless you play the episode in slow motion).
And even if you noticed that the head explosed and was thrown in the direction of the time bubble, it wass not clearly shown that it went through with the Connors.

After episode 1.04 aired, don't you remember fans wondering how a piece of metal could travel in time? It doesn't respect the Terminator franchise bible and can be considered as a plot hole.

Quote (kaotic)
John did have friends. He had Derek, Kyle, Perry, Cameron, and probably a bunch of others. But having friends and being lonely is two completely different things. Future John probably didn't have someone he could love romantically (besides Cameron). He was alone because Skynet wanted him dead and that kind of makes finding a partner hard.

Jesse actually doesn't know that he never talked to anyone. Realistically, there is no way that John was only talking to just Cameron. He would have to talk to his other Generals and staff so he could coordinate the war. And you have to remmeber Jesse was trying to get Derek on her side.

I'll try one more time :

s01ep06 :
Derek (in a bunker, speaking to General Perry) : let me talk to Connor, Kyle was his friend
Perry : Connor has no friends and he doesn't talk to anyone"

s02e10
Jesse : "he wasn't talking to anyone anymore, just her...She has taken over"

s02e19
Sailer Dietz (in the suburb Jimmy Carter) : "that little metal bitch that follows Connor everywhere"

Cameron : "Telling me is the same as telling John" ( because i killed him and took his place).

Once again, one could say that Perry lied to Derek in order to discourage him for asking too many questions. But why should one try to imagine things wereas i quote existing lines from the show itself? Lines that all say the same thing, said by different people who all lived in the future Cameron came from. Are they all lying about the same thing? I call that strong hints.

The word "Realistically" doesn't apply in any scripted tv show, let alone in a sci-fi serie


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kaoticDate: Monday, 09 Jan 2012, 20:15 | Message # 323
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Quote (chrisdvanne)
Quote (kaotic)
As for the head, it actually went through when they did. Watch episode 1x04.

The head jumping in time with the Connors is actually one of the few things that were planned by the writers and that will effectively serve a story line in the later episodes; i'm just saying that noone noticed it (unless you play the episode in slow motion).
And even if you noticed that the head explosed and was thrown in the direction of the time bubble, it wass not clearly shown that it went through with the Connors.

After episode 1.04 aired, don't you remember fans wondering how a piece of metal could travel in time? It doesn't respect the Terminator franchise bible and can be considered as a plot hole.

Quote (kaotic)
John did have friends. He had Derek, Kyle, Perry, Cameron, and probably a bunch of others. But having friends and being lonely is two completely different things. Future John probably didn't have someone he could love romantically (besides Cameron). He was alone because Skynet wanted him dead and that kind of makes finding a partner hard.

Jesse actually doesn't know that he never talked to anyone. Realistically, there is no way that John was only talking to just Cameron. He would have to talk to his other Generals and staff so he could coordinate the war. And you have to remmeber Jesse was trying to get Derek on her side.

I'll try one more time :

s01ep06 :
Derek (in a bunker, speaking to General Perry) : let me talk to Connor, Kyle was his friend
Perry : Connor has no friends and he doesn't talk to anyone"

s02e10
Jesse : "he wasn't talking to anyone anymore, just her...She has taken over"

s02e19
Sailer Dietz (in the suburb Jimmy Carter) : "that little metal bitch that follows Connor everywhere"

Cameron : "Telling me is the same as telling John" ( because i killed him and took his place).

Once again, one could say that Perry lied to Derek in order to discourage him for asking too many questions. But why should one try to imagine things wereas i quote existing lines from the show itself? Lines that all say the same thing, said by different people who all lived in the future Cameron came from. Are they all lying about the same thing? I call that strong hints.

The word "Realistically" doesn't apply in any scripted tv show, let alone in a sci-fi serie


Perry was joking... Derek even rolled his eyes. Before that Derek said that Kyle was John's friend.

Plus, as i said, John still has to talk to his Generals and staff. There is no way around that, because every General would want to talk with him and get some face time.

As for Jesse, she doesn't know everything. Hell for all we know she left shortly after the sub incident. And as I said, Jesse was just trying to get Derek on her side. As for Dietz, so what? Cameron followed him around... what does that prove?

"Telling me is the same as telling John" ( because i killed him and took his place). LOL WHAT? HOW DID YOU GET THAT?

Or it means: I'm John's second in command and we're really close. You can tell me anything you'd tell him.

Yep, still not buying what you guys are selling.

You understand what "realistically" mean in the context I was using it as, right? I.E: basically or truthfully

Oh, I know what happened. John was shagging Cameron and had a heart attack. She didn't know what to do so she took over.


Message edited by kaotic - Monday, 09 Jan 2012, 20:31
 
chrisdvanneDate: Monday, 09 Jan 2012, 20:27 | Message # 324
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As you can see kaotic, i try to prove my point with humor (there is very few times i take myself too seriously); i can live with the fact i failed at convincing you about that specific point on that specific thread; the Summer Glau Wiki offers so many possibilities to its members i can abandon this thread to you.

Quote (kaotic)
You understand what "realistically" mean in the context I was using it as, right? I.E: basically or truthfully

As you guessed, i didn't understand, sorry.

Quote (kaotic)
"Telling me is the same as telling John" ( because i killed him and took his place). LOL WHAT? HOW DID YOU GET THAT?

Or it means: I'm John's second in command and we're really close. You can tell me anything you'd tell him.

Reallistically, that's the idea biggrin But it could be interpreted in both mine or your way.


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kaoticDate: Monday, 09 Jan 2012, 20:28 | Message # 325
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Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
In all honesty, I hold my beliefs very strongly, probably as strongly as you hold yours. You may think of me just as being more circumspect in my style of expression.


This.
 
chrisdvanneDate: Monday, 09 Jan 2012, 20:30 | Message # 326
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Quote (kaotic)
Oh, I know what happened. John was shagging Cameron and had a heart attack. She didn't know what to do so she took over.

When are you pitching the idea to a TSCC writer?


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termi-ninja-torDate: Monday, 09 Jan 2012, 23:31 | Message # 327
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Quote (Blazius)
Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
Personally, I have always regarded the pilot as canon in its entirety.


Camerons behavior change and a bunch of contradictions eek ?

In the pilot, Cameron was pretending to be a high school girl trying to make friends with a stranger, young John. Her behavior was consistent with this mission. After meeting the Connors and joining their party, they knew her as a skinned terminator, so she behaved as one.

She can behave differently depending on her purpose. Note for example, how she behaved in Automatic for the People, first as she and Sarah were being introduced into the plant, watching the instructional video and walking through the plant, and secondly later at the Broken Atom bar where she played pool against some plant security guys.

Also, she behaved as an educated young techie lady in Strange Things Happen at the One Two Point.

We also know she has the mannerisms to behave like a lost teenager, which she displayed when she thought she was Allison in Allison from Palmdale.

So yes, I see a difference in Cameron's behavior between the pilot and some later episodes. But no, I do not think this must indicate any retcon or any reason to disregard the pilot as non-canon.

[edit add] And I almost forgot to mention her famous "I love you John and you love me speech" during Samson and Delilah. This sounded to me like a distressed woman in love -- again quite different from her previous normal style. She adopted a different personna as befitted her purpose.


Message edited by termi-ninja-tor - Monday, 09 Jan 2012, 23:36
 
chrisdvanneDate: Monday, 09 Jan 2012, 23:45 | Message # 328
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So yes, I see a difference in Cameron's behavior between the pilot and some later episodes. But no, I do not think this must indicate any retcon or any reason to disregard the pilot as non-canon.

It is true that Cameron sometimes acted like a perfectly typical teenager but she did not follow the trend you're describing, making your reasoning wrong.

You forget the whole high school episodes immediately following the episode, which should have been a direct continuation of the pilot; if i follow your reasoning, Cameron should have had a perfectly normal behavior in class all the time, like she did in the pilot. But if you rewatch these episodes, John has to remind her constantly to behave like a normal teenager and not like a machine.


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termi-ninja-torDate: Tuesday, 10 Jan 2012, 02:29 | Message # 329
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Quote (chrisdvanne)
Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
So yes, I see a difference in Cameron's behavior between the pilot and some later episodes. But no, I do not think this must indicate any retcon or any reason to disregard the pilot as non-canon.

It is true that Cameron sometimes acted like a perfectly typical teenager but she did not follow the trend you're describing, making your reasoning wrong.

You forget the whole high school episodes immediately following the episode, which should have been a direct continuation of the pilot; if i follow your reasoning, Cameron should have had a perfectly normal behavior in class all the time, like she did in the pilot. But if you rewatch these episodes, John has to remind her constantly to behave like a normal teenager and not like a machine.

Yes, but in those episodes she was not trying to become anyone's friend. In the pilot, she was trying to befriend John. In the later episodes, she was more likely trying to avoid making close associations, since those could ultimately result in someone discovering her true nature. For example, she is very pretty and guys would normally want to hit on her if she were even a little bit friendly. She got into trouble with Morris, who asked her to the prom despite her cold demeanor. And she avoided the odd friendliness of the messenger who told her a cop was looking for her brother in the school office. It was clear to me that she would want to minimize unnecessary interaction with other students, and so her colder style made sense to me -- it would have been inadvisable (and logically inconsistent) for her to act as friendly as she did in the pilot episode.
 
BlaziusDate: Tuesday, 10 Jan 2012, 06:42 | Message # 330
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Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
In the pilot, Cameron was pretending to be a high school girl trying to make friends with a stranger, young John. Her behavior was consistent with this mission. After meeting the Connors and joining their party, they knew her as a skinned terminator, so she behaved as one.

She can behave differently depending on her purpose. Note for example, how she behaved in Automatic for the People, first as she and Sarah were being introduced into the plant, watching the instructional video and walking through the plant, and secondly later at the Broken Atom bar where she played pool against some plant security guys.

Also, she behaved as an educated young techie lady in Strange Things Happen at the One Two Point.

We also know she has the mannerisms to behave like a lost teenager, which she displayed when she thought she was Allison in Allison from Palmdale.

So yes, I see a difference in Cameron's behavior between the pilot and some later episodes. But no, I do not think this must indicate any retcon or any reason to disregard the pilot as non-canon.

[edit add] And I almost forgot to mention her famous "I love you John and you love me speech" during Samson and Delilah. This sounded to me like a distressed woman in love -- again quite different from her previous normal style. She adopted a different personna as befitted her purpose.


I feared this will come to this but this means that you haven't actually noticed the subtle mechanical characteristics which Summer later gave to Cameron even when Cam faked emotions and she was in infiltration mode.

Even in Alison from Palmdale( when Cam is in absolute perfect infiltration mode) its noticable that Summer acts too mechanical when she is Cameron in "Alison" mode. Summer even made a remark in the Audio commentary that the most exhausting part of that episode was that she had to play so many different characters.

In the pilot Cameron is not mechanical at all but fakes human behavior PERFECTLY. How did you miss that???

BTW this makes this post:

Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
Yes, but in those episodes she was not trying to become anyone's friend. In the pilot, she was trying to befriend John. In the later episodes, she was more likely trying to avoid making close associations, since those could ultimately result in someone discovering her true nature. For example, she is very pretty and guys would normally want to hit on her if she were even a little bit friendly. She got into trouble with Morris, who asked her to the prom despite her cold demeanor. And she avoided the odd friendliness of the messenger who told her a cop was looking for her brother in the school office. It was clear to me that she would want to minimize unnecessary interaction with other students, and so her colder style made sense to me -- it would have been inadvisable (and logically inconsistent) for her to act as friendly as she did in the pilot episode.


Invalid! Because in Alison from Palmdale there was no conscious choice on Cams part whether to activate infiltration mode or not. And she was so much in infiltration mode that she herself believed that she is a human. Yet Summer still played her mechanically and watched out for the delicate balance in her acting which she didn't utilize in the pilot because in that episode Cam was able to perfectly imitate humans because she was so advanced according to the story which was later retconned.

Oh and because we all know that Cam acted perfectly human in the pilot because originally she was intended to be so advanced to be able to do that( Summer herself said that) the fact that you are rationalizing the whole thing so it can fit into later episodes changed concept indicates that you are contradicting yourself because what you are doing yourself is a

HUGE RETCON

Gotcha! Shame on you tongue tongue tongue tongue


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