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Summer-Glau.com Forum » Filmography » Terminator the Sarah Connor Chronicles » Theories about TSCC and Cameron's unsolved plots
Theories about TSCC and Cameron's unsolved plots
kaoticDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 06:59 | Message # 271
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All she has to do is decide to allow herself to make these sensations as important to herself as they are to humans.


I agree with you.
 
BlaziusDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 18:20 | Message # 272
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I believe Cameron voluntarily joined the Third Faction before Allison was captured.


Wrong. Cameron was with Skynet during the interrogation and murder of Alison and thats a fact. Its pretty obvious if you watched Alison from Palmdale and no, its that short of obvious which doesn't let any other interpretation unless you question what you saw in the episode and write a separate non-cannon fanfic .

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My comment was that she can program herself to place greater importance on that set of received stimuli. Just like Uncle Bob could "feel" the bullet holes, he could also choose to interpret them as painful and allow the realization of pain to have as great an importance in his thoughts as real pain for humans. In the movie, we were given the impression that he could "feel" the bullet holes but did not really care about them -- that's a choice in his programming that can be changed.


I'm not sure what you mean here. Uncle Bob did nothing to his programming, he merely explains his damage monitoring mechanisms to young John with a human analogy since it was obvious that he wouldn't understand if Bob started to go into details. Bob still "felt pain" in the same way as he did when he came out of the Skynet assembly lines.

Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
What I was trying to describe was that Cameron could feel John's presence during sex and choose to allow these sensations to be more important to her in her thinking and decision making. The level of her experience is self-adjustable. All she has to do is decide to allow herself to make these sensations as important to herself as they are to humans. And she has the "detailed files" in her knowledge base to perform this modification.


Terminators can't just reprogram themselves as they see fit. They can override currently running commands which you see written on their virtual HUD but thats all. Cameron still can't purge her core programming out of herself like the urge to kill humans for example.

Also even if something like this would be remotely possible in the T universe( which isn't) why would she do that? Its a concept utterly alien to her species and its not even desirable since it'd hinder efficiency by a large margin. What you ask from her would be analogous with asking John to castrate himself and build a computer interface into his skull so he can form a LAN connection with Cameron.

Just because Cameron is a machine entity does that mean that she has to mutilate herself and give up her newfound soul so John can have fun with her? Isn't that an extreme form of sex slavery?

People seem to be very fixed on John in this "Love story" while nobody cares about Camerons point of view AT ALL as it seems while she is the one who is supposed to be the fan favorite character dry


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kaoticDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 18:42 | Message # 273
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People seem to be very fixed on John in this "Love story" while nobody cares about Camerons point of view AT ALL as it seems while she is the one who is supposed to be the fan favorite character


That's bs, everyone is thinking of Cameron too.

But you're saying you KNOW what Cameron would want from a relationship with John and how her mind and body works. It's canon that machines can fill something akin to pain, and in Cameron's case can feel sensation. For all you know, she might be completely okay with having sex with John even though she doesn't receive anything truly physical from it. Cameron might enjoy the closeness she gets from the act just by being there with John. You're only looking at it from an physical connection, but there's more than that to John and Cameron's relationship (every relationship). She loves him and that alone might be enough for her. The emotional side is just as important, if not more so.

An example of what I'm talking about is in Ourselves Alone when John holds her hand while he's fixing her. That closeness to him might be all she needs.



Message edited by kaotic - Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 18:46
 
termi-ninja-torDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 18:42 | Message # 274
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I believe Cameron voluntarily joined the Third Faction before Allison was captured.

Wrong. Cameron was with Skynet during the interrogation and murder of Alison and thats a fact. Its pretty obvious if you watched Alison from Palmdale and no, its that short of obvious which doesn't let any other interpretation unless you question what you saw in the episode and write a separate non-cannon fanfic .

Well, Cameron did tell Allison that Cameron was with some terminators who were against Skynet. I'm sure you must remember that, but I guess you did not believe her. Clearly, Allison did not believe her.

But is there any evidence that Cameron was lying? We saw Allison being captured, held prisoner, interrogated, copied, and killed. These were all things that might be done by both the Third Faction and Skynet. (I think that Cameron killed Allison because Allison had lied to her and her usefulness was over, even though Cameron was already in the Third Faction. Cameron did not expect any Resistance people to ever find out that she had killed Allison.)

True, in the counselor's office, Cameron said she would kill John Connor and put his head on a pike. But she was glitching and switching between personalities -- Allison, reprogrammed John-friendly Cameron, base terminator, Third Faction terminator -- as the episode progressed. I agree while she was at the counselor's office saying this that she was clearly in base terminator mode. But that doesn't establish what she was when she was interrogating Allison back in the future.

I understand it is easy to believe Cameron was lying to Allison. I choose to interpret that she was telling the truth. We just have different interpretations of this material. I don't think there is enough material to say either one of us is clearly wrong.
 
kaoticDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 18:45 | Message # 275
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But is there any evidence that Cameron was lying?


Well, even Josh Friedman said that Cameron wasn't part of a third faction in the Allison from Palmdale commentary.

She was created to kill Connor and she was getting info from Allison so she could kill him. There would be no reason for the third faction to want to kill him. They need him as Weaver said. She was still under Skynet's control until John reprogrammed her. She joined the third faction in Born to Run.


Message edited by kaotic - Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 18:53
 
termi-ninja-torDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 18:51 | Message # 276
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Terminators can't just reprogram themselves as they see fit. They can override currently running commands which you see written on their virtual HUD but thats all. Cameron still can't purge her core programming out of herself like the urge to kill humans for example.

Yes, it is the override that is important. Cameron may still want to kill John deep down inside, but she has not killed him. She wanted to kill Riley but she overcame that also. Cameron was evolving during the series, rising beyond her base terminator programming, replacing it with choices of her own selection. She was clearly able to do this. And she would have continued to do so if she had been given the chance.

Why would she want to be more like humans? Perhaps she found humans interesting and wanted to experience what we can experience. (Uncle Bob showed similar interest in T2 when he asked about smiling and why we cry.) Perhaps she was following her drive to be a more effective, humanlike infiltrator. Perhaps she wanted to convert her commitment to John into its human equivalent -- love. I don't know why, but I did get the impression during the series that she was becoming more humanlike.
 
kaoticDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 18:55 | Message # 277
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Why would she want to be more like humans? Perhaps she found humans interesting and wanted to experience what we can experience.


If you watch the special features, there's a moment where Josh Friedman and the other writers are talking and they're discussing Cameron. Josh Friedman says in that discussion: Cameron IS trying to do whatever she can do to become more human like because she wants John to love her.

Anyway, it's been real nice talking to you guys but this is my last post on any of these kinds of discussions. I'll stick to the fanfiction stuff. I've just had too many of these discussions on other sites and I just don't find them enjoyable anymore (between the red and blue wiki I've discussed this stuff like a million times). Though, I'll probably check back once in a while just to see how things are going.


Message edited by kaotic - Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 19:07
 
termi-ninja-torDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 18:58 | Message # 278
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But is there any evidence that Cameron was lying?


Well, even Josh Friedman said that Cameron wasn't part of a third faction in the Allison from Palmdale commentary.

She was created to kill Connor and she was getting info from Allison so she could kill him. There would be no reason for the third faction to want to kill him. They need him as Weaver said. She was still under Skynet's control until John reprogrammed her. She joined the third faction in Born to Run.

Yes, I remember Friedman saying that.

Sadly, I have to admit that I don't always believe that Friedman is not lying. My impression of him is that he relishes the ambiguity that he injects into the story, and his outside commentaries and interview remarks may be designed to further such ambiguity. So I take what he says with a grain of salt.

In this particular instance, I have chosen to set aside his comment and take the opposite interpretation. To each their own.
 
BlaziusDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 19:17 | Message # 279
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But you're saying you KNOW what Cameron would want from a relationship with John and how her mind and body works. It's canon that machines can fill something akin to pain, and in Cameron's case can feel sensation. For all you know, she might be completely okay with having sex with John even though she doesn't receive anything truly physical from it. Cameron might enjoy the closeness she gets from the act just by being there with John. You're only looking at it from an physical connection, but there's more than that to John and Cameron's relationship (every relationship). She loves him and that alone might be enough for her. The emotional side is just as important, if not more so.


Because that fits with the character whose development I watched for two seasons 2 + thats what the mythology of the entire franchise and common sense supports?

And the problem is that you both seem to evade a crapload of arguments I'm making in my posts and respond only to chunks of it.

But then lets play this differently. Nobody has any reason to believe that Cameron wants to fuck with John. More, the evidences from the show and creator commentaries support more the idea that Cameron doesn't want to fuck with John ever. I don't even know where this idea came from in the first place?

So I'm the one who'd need harder evidence on the fact that Cameron indeed wants to fuck with John and not just want to be his super best friend. What I saw so far were fanfiction on your part only marginally related to this show.

Quote (kaotic)
Well, even Josh Friedman said that Cameron wasn't part of a third faction in the Allison from Palmdale commentary.

She was created to kill Connor and she was getting info from Allison so she could kill him. There would be no reason for the third faction to want to kill him. They need him as Weaver said. She was still under Skynet's control until John reprogrammed her. She joined the third faction in Born to Run.


Thats right plus there are tons of evidences in the show too. I have no more comment.

Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
Why would she want to be more like humans? Perhaps she found humans interesting and wanted to experience what we can experience. (Uncle Bob showed similar interest in T2 when he asked about smiling and why we cry.) Perhaps she was following her drive to be a more effective, humanlike infiltrator. Perhaps she wanted to convert her commitment to John into its human equivalent -- love. I don't know why, but I did get the impression during the series that she was becoming more humanlike.


Except that its commonly known that Cam doesn't want to be more human, she wants to be a better machine and explore her sentience in her OWN way not copying another fundamentally different species . Watch Summer interviews and Friedman comments.


Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
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BlaziusDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 19:18 | Message # 280
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Sadly, I have to admit that I don't always believe that Friedman is not lying. My impression of him is that he relishes the ambiguity that he injects into the story, and his outside commentaries and interview remarks may be designed to further such ambiguity. So I take what he says with a grain of salt.

In this particular instance, I have chosen to set aside his comment and take the opposite interpretation. To each their own.


You probably know more what happened in the show than the very people who made it?


Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!
 
BlaziusDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 19:22 | Message # 281
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If you watch the special features, there's a moment where Josh Friedman and the other writers are talking and they're discussing Cameron. Josh Friedman says in that discussion: Cameron IS trying to do whatever she can do to become more human like because she wants John to love her.


Which commentary is this?

Doesn't matter anyway, its common knowledge that Cam wants John to love her so he'd follow her. Thats why she is a good infiltrator.


Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!
 
termi-ninja-torDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 19:24 | Message # 282
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You probably know more what happened in the show than the very people who made it?

No, no. Of course not, nor would I ever claim to know more.

But I did explain my thought in my post: I just don't always trust what Friedman says. I'm sure he knows more about the show than me, but what he says may be something else.
 
BlaziusDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 19:30 | Message # 283
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No, no. Of course not, nor would I ever claim to know more.

But I did explain my thought in my post: I just don't always trust what Friedman says. I'm sure he knows more about the show than me, but what he says may be something else.


I can't comment on that. If thats true then half of our evidences are out of the window obviously since we can't verify them.

Although I still think that the evidences in the show + Friedmans comments are too similar so he doesn't lie, but who knows.

Maybe he intended to retcon the whole thing in season 3 in a way that we'd never even imagine in. I've seen this done before.


Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!
 
chrisdvanneDate: Thursday, 05 Jan 2012, 15:50 | Message # 284
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Please, list all the "hints" given that shows that Cameron killed John. Like I said, I didn't see anything like that.

Sorry for the late answer!
Since you and other members have already largely debated that question and given your opinion in the previous pages, no need to answer this post.

For me, saying that Cameron killed future John Connor is a way to answer another question which is the central point of the show (answer that question and the show is over). That question is : who sent Cameron back in time , also known as what's Cameron secret agenda?

Some TSCC fans answer that she was sent to stop Cromartie from kill young John Connor; but this opinion seriously lack of perspective and one must aknowledge that the pilot does not belong to the serie in terms of plots and story-arc. The pilot is not even a good introduction to the show and its character, it's just a rip-off of the past Terminator films, a cat and mouse play between Cromartie and the Connors. There is nothing canon in it : Cameron is not the Cameron we will see later and no overarching story is introduced, even Derek Reese is introduced later in the story, not to mention John Henry and Catherine Weaver.

The event that caused Cameron to come back must have been of a dramatic essence, like a mutinery inside the resistance, John Connor Connor killed by a Skynet or Killed by a reprogrammed T gone bad or by Cameron herself.

Now back to the point : i base my reasoning on three main points :
1) We have many testimonies that future JC doesn't talk to anyone, just Cameron; the only person the resistance fighters see is Cameron; is she only her liaison or is this because JC is dead and Cameron took over the movement, trying to impersonate him.

2) We know that reprogrammed T's go bad sometimes and i don't see why it couldn't happen to Cameron herself in the future, since it's in their core programing to kill humans. The explosion in season 1 finale triggered glitchy Cameron but nothing tells us it has not happen before, not caused by an explosion though ("Sometimes they go bad, no one knows why"; why did she tell "they" and not "we" btw).

3) John Connor: So down deep... you want to kill me.
Cameron Phillips: Yes. I do.
John Connor: And why don't you?
Cameron Phillips: I might someday.

Such things are not said at random and then forgotten for the rest of the serie; TSCC is a serialized show, which means the writers give hints of something to happen but the audience has not enough elements to know what it will be; then when the event come, the audience can connect it with previous elements given throughout the previous episodes.

My personal interpretation of the line "I might someday" is "i did"


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Message edited by chrisdvanne - Friday, 06 Jan 2012, 13:08
 
termi-ninja-torDate: Thursday, 05 Jan 2012, 16:42 | Message # 285
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Since you and other members have already largely debated that question and given your opinion in the previous pages, no need to answer this post.

Thank you chrisdvanne for collecting these "hints."
 
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