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Summer-Glau.com Forum » Filmography » Terminator the Sarah Connor Chronicles » Theories about TSCC and Cameron's unsolved plots
Theories about TSCC and Cameron's unsolved plots
termi-ninja-torDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 02:45 | Message # 256
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As you may know from my previous posts, I do not think Cameron killed future John and I do think that future John sent Cameron back to protect our John, just as Cameron explained to the Connors.

I recall from our earlier discussions that other members cited a number of "hints" that Cameron did kill future John. After thinking about them, I did not find myself convinced that Cameron killed future John. I thought the "hints" were quite subject to interpretation. Rather than deny the interpretations of others, I have taken the view that there was not enough material in the show to substantiate their claim.


Message edited by termi-ninja-tor - Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 03:01
 
BlaziusDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 03:23 | Message # 257
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Quote (kaotic)
Yeah, that's my thinking too. It doesn't make sense AT ALL for Cameron to kill John and then protect his younger self.


You seem to forget Samson and Delilah again along with the overarching subplot with Cams damaged chip and glitches.

Why is that everybody likes to take everything at face value in a show which is about deception, grey morality, underlining intent, ambiguous meanings etc?

Or am I overanalyzing this show too much?


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kaoticDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 03:56 | Message # 258
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Quote (kaotic)
Yeah, that's my thinking too. It doesn't make sense AT ALL for Cameron to kill John and then protect his younger self.


You seem to forget Samson and Delilah again along with the overarching subplot with Cams damaged chip and glitches.

Why is that everybody likes to take everything at face value in a show which is about deception, grey morality, underlining intent, ambiguous meanings etc?

Or am I overanalyzing this show too much?


I'm not forgetting S&D, I've sen that episode many times and listen to the commentary many times too. From what I saw there was nothing in S&D that hinted at Cameron killing John or going bad before that episode. Josh Friedman even said that Cameron overriding her own programming is the reason she was having so many problems in season two. It was the first time she had overrode her programming like that.

But people can believe and interpret whatever they want in anyway they want. smile


Message edited by kaotic - Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 04:06
 
kaoticDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 04:03 | Message # 259
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As you may know from my previous posts, I do not think Cameron killed future John and I do think that future John sent Cameron back to protect our John, just as Cameron explained to the Connors.


This is my view too.
 
BlaziusDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 04:22 | Message # 260
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I'm not forgetting S&D, I've sen that episode many times and listen to the commentary many times too. From what I saw there was nothing in S&D that hinted at Cameron killing John or going bad before that episode. Josh Friedman even said that Cameron overriding her own programming is the reason she was having so many problems in season two. It was the first time she had overrode her programming like that.


I'm just saying that its perfectly possible that Cam glitched and killed John out of accident( Resistance reprogramming tech leaves a lot to be desired as it seems)

Also there is the strange thing in the future that John is nowhere to be found and he doesn't come out even when his men start to being rebellious and flat out question his orders.

Its a show where you have to piece things together and it implies a lot by leaving small clues. You can't flat out believe everything what the characters are saying.


Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!
 
kaoticDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 04:28 | Message # 261
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I'm just saying that its perfectly possible that Cam glitched and killed John out of accident( Resistance reprogramming tech leaves a lot to be desired as it seems)


Like I said, I didn't see that, but if you did okay.

Quote (Blazius)
Also there is the strange thing in the future that John is nowhere to be found and he doesn't come out even when his men start to being rebellious and flat out question his orders. .


They wanted Future John to be someone that we never see. We only get to see his actions and whatnot. Just because we don't see him doesn't mean he's dead. He is supposed to be ambiguous.

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You can't flat out believe everything what the characters are saying.


Does that mean when John says "I love you" to Sarah in BTR that we can't flat out believe that? Heh.


Message edited by kaotic - Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 04:31
 
BlaziusDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 04:50 | Message # 262
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Does that mean when John says "I love you" to Sarah in BTR that we can't flat out believe that? Heh.


Did you believe the same words when Cam said them in S&D?

So no that doesn't mean that.

Quote (kaotic)
They wanted Future John to be someone that we never see. We only get to see his actions and whatnot. Just because we don't see him doesn't mean he's dead. He is supposed to be ambiguous.


Except that we see in universe characters making remarks about it and even rebel because of it so its obviously not just show for the viewers.

Doesn't matter BTW, Chrisdvanne brings his evidences tomorrow, anyway, those will probably show why we believe in the murder.


Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!
 
kaoticDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 04:52 | Message # 263
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Did you believe the same words when Cam said them in S&D?

So no that doesn't mean that.


That's a poor example. We don't believe her because she is still under Skynet's control.

Quote
Doesn't matter BTW, Chrisdvanne brings his evidences tomorrow, anyway, those will probably show why we believe in the murder.


I'm really curious to see what the "evidence" is. Because I'm getting the feeling that you guys might have saw a completely different show than me. Heh.


Message edited by kaotic - Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 05:01
 
kaoticDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 04:56 | Message # 264
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delete this please.

Message edited by kaotic - Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 04:56
 
termi-ninja-torDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 05:38 | Message # 265
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Please forgive me for quoting my own post #217 from this thread.

I would like to recontribute this to the current discussion. Personally, I believe that Cameron is theoretically able to experience "emotions" even though she is "mechanical." Her personality has been developing through the series and toward the end of the second season I believe she has absorbed many human qualities, including possibly the ability to feel emotions.

Obviously, John can love Cameron even while knowing she is not human, but I think Cameron can also love John in an emotional way. Love is not just the sex act, and the sex act is not just about reproduction -- it is about giving and receiving pleasure, about wanting to make your partner happy, about mutual sharing. (After all, that's why teens do it, right? Getting pregnant is just a consequence. ahem.)

Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
Could Cameron behave emotionally?

What are emotions, anyhow? For people, generally instincts and historical factors combine to define a set of likes and dislikes for each of us. Like some guys are attracted to tall blondes. The set of likes and dislikes causes physiological reactions and thought processes that are generally called emotions. Emotions generate a proposed behavior pattern that could replace the normal rational or habitual behavior pattern. Remember Arnie had a menu of choices for what to say to the janitor who said his room smelled bad. To such a menu, emotions would add less rational responses that reflect such feelings, and then they would bias him or her toward choosing these emotional responses. Like a young mother may choose to step in front of a bullet to save her child, an example where love wins out over the rationality of self preservation.

Emotional responses are like instinctive responses, a different set of choices besides just the most rational choices. For Cameron, her base terminator programming is like a strong instinct. It causes thought processes which propose certain behaviors. Like her base terminator programming tells her to eliminate security threats, so this causes her to be constantly thinking about security and evaluating threat levels, which leads her to killing birds almost involuntarily. She is eventually able to overcome this instinct-driven behavior pattern when she refuses to kill Riley. This is akin to a person's rational thought overcoming his instinctive or emotional reactions, like a tightrope walker must overcome his instinctive fear of heights every time he steps out onto the high wire.

Cameron knows the definitions of all the human emotions, so it should be easy for her to load in a set of emotional thought processes and let them propose alternative behaviors. Like if she wanted to assess John's stress level, she could grip his arm, caress his neck, or kiss him on the lips. They would all give her enough skin contact to take a reading. And she could feel an internal bias toward kissing him even if she ultimately caresses his neck instead. When she thought she was Allison at the halfway house, her behavior was driven by a set of emotional thought processes when she pushed John away and when she cried in the counselors office. Her tears showed her body's response to her emotional thought patterns, although I doubt she has the capability to experience the full range of human physiological reactions.

Can Cameron experience emotions? Clearly, by loading a set of emotional thought processes, Cameron would experience at least the mental part of feeling emotion, like having to choose between rational behavior and emotional behavior when she is confronted with a choice as we saw her struggling not to kill Riley. It would not be inconceivable that we could see her occasionally succumb to the emotional choice and do something irrational, like kissing John spontaneously. We don't know how much of the physiological aspect of being emotional she could experience, beyond crying, since it just really depends on the capabilities designed into her flesh covering.
 
BlaziusDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 05:44 | Message # 266
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That's a poor example. We don't believe her because she is still under Skynet's control.


And we know that she all along "forgot" to mention that she is actually working for the Rogue Terminators so she is never straight with JC and others.

And half of the TSCC fan community seems to think her words were genuine even in that scene anyway. The trick is exactly to distinguish lies from truths, thats why the show was so cool. We gathered that Sarah is genuinely saying the "I love you" lines in Born to Run but we also gathered that Cameron often lies and has a secret agenda so we can't believe her always. But because Cam is a fan favorite character she is morally pure and can't even lie or have secrets?

I like her exactly because she is mysterious and intriguing not the other way around. Simple and predictable characters are boring.


Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!
 
kaoticDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 05:51 | Message # 267
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But because Cam is a fan favorite character she is morally pure and can't even lie or have secrets?


No. She can lie and have secrets like every one else in the world. But when I interpret something I personally prefer things to make sense. To me, Cameron killing John doesn't make sense.


Message edited by kaotic - Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 06:38
 
BlaziusDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 06:17 | Message # 268
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Obviously, John can love Cameron even while knowing she is not human, but I think Cameron can also love John in an emotional way. Love is not just the sex act, and the sex act is not just about reproduction -- it is about giving and receiving pleasure, about wanting to make your partner happy, about mutual sharing. (After all, that's why teens do it, right? Getting pregnant is just a consequence. ahem.)


You all seem to misunderstand me. Cam can have a relationship with John. She can even "love" him. But only as a super best friend at best. She can acknowledge gifts, she can appreciate them in her own way because thats what logic based entities are capable of too. But fucking her does nothing to her because she don't get anything from that. Because her brain can't process it. It acknowledges the shape the temperature the weight of Johns body she can acknowledge its material, and what it feels like to have a skin to skin contact with it but her brain simply processes it like it'd process a hit for example. But thats all. Even if she'd have genitals and they'd function properly and they would send sensory data to Cams brain it couldn't process it as pleasure because it wasn't designed that way. Pleasure only exists in OUR brain, its an illusion, it doesn't exist in reality,you can only define it by your limited view of the universe, therefore you won't find it in fundamentally different entities.


Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!
 
termi-ninja-torDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 06:26 | Message # 269
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That's a poor example. We don't believe her because she is still under Skynet's control.


And we know that she all along "forgot" to mention that she is actually working for the Rogue Terminators so she is never straight with JC and others.

And half of the TSCC fan community seems to think her words were genuine even in that scene anyway. The trick is exactly to distinguish lies from truths, thats why the show was so cool. We gathered that Sarah is genuinely saying the "I love you" lines in Born to Run but we also gathered that Cameron often lies and has a secret agenda so we can't believe her always. But because Cam is a fan favorite character she is morally pure and can't even lie or have secrets?

I like her exactly because she is mysterious and intriguing not the other way around. Simple and predictable characters are boring.

The ultimate goal is to defeat Skynet. John Connor's importance is a corollary to that goal because he can lead the Resistance to victory.

If, for example, Cameron were able to destroy Skynet in a definitive fashion, she should do so, even if it means sacrificing John. I believe she understands this logic.

Also, it may be that the Resistance cannot defeat Skynet without the cooperation of the Third Faction. Weaver term believes this and clearly said it to Sarah. Thus, helping the Third Faction is also an important priority for Cameron. If she can help the Third Faction without directly endangering John's life, she should do so.

Remember in Cameron's future, the Third Faction did not join with the Resistance because of the Jimmy Carter sub incident. Thus the opportunity was lost for a coordinated effort against Skynet. It makes sense that she would want to contribute what she can to a "will you join us" invitation now. And so she did.

I believe Cameron voluntarily joined the Third Faction before Allison was captured. Cameron told Allison that she wanted to meet with John Connor (perhaps to talk about becoming allies), but Allison did not believe her. After Cameron tried to infiltrate future John's HQ skinned as Allison, she was captured and reprogrammed. The reprogramming included memory wipes, but the memory wipes failed over time, as we saw in Allison from Palmdale. She eventually remembered her earlier commitments to the Third Faction, and responded accordingly when Ellison spoke the question to her. And helping the Third Faction also made sense to her in the context of her Resistance reprogramming, because of the logic of helping the Third Faction and thereby contributing to Skynet's defeat.
 
termi-ninja-torDate: Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 06:34 | Message # 270
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Quote (termi-ninja-tor)
Obviously, John can love Cameron even while knowing she is not human, but I think Cameron can also love John in an emotional way. Love is not just the sex act, and the sex act is not just about reproduction -- it is about giving and receiving pleasure, about wanting to make your partner happy, about mutual sharing. (After all, that's why teens do it, right? Getting pregnant is just a consequence. ahem.)


You all seem to misunderstand me. Cam can have a relationship with John. She can even "love" him. But only as a super best friend at best. She can acknowledge gifts, she can appreciate them in her own way because thats what logic based entities are capable of too. But fucking her does nothing to her because she don't get anything from that. Because her brain can't process it. It acknowledges the shape the temperature the weight of Johns body she can acknowledge its material, and what it feels like to have a skin to skin contact with it but her brain simply processes it like it'd process a hit for example. But thats all. Even if she'd have genitals and they'd function properly and they would send sensory data to Cams brain it couldn't process it as pleasure because it wasn't designed that way. Pleasure only exists in OUR brain, its an illusion, it doesn't exist in reality,you can only define it by your limited view of the universe, therefore you won't find it in fundamentally different entities.

Yes, you make a good point, Blazius.

My comment was that she can program herself to place greater importance on that set of received stimuli. Just like Uncle Bob could "feel" the bullet holes, he could also choose to interpret them as painful and allow the realization of pain to have as great an importance in his thoughts as real pain for humans. In the movie, we were given the impression that he could "feel" the bullet holes but did not really care about them -- that's a choice in his programming that can be changed.

What I was trying to describe was that Cameron could feel John's presence during sex and choose to allow these sensations to be more important to her in her thinking and decision making. The level of her experience is self-adjustable. All she has to do is decide to allow herself to make these sensations as important to herself as they are to humans. And she has the "detailed files" in her knowledge base to perform this modification.
 
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