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Summer-Glau.com Forum » Filmography » Terminator the Sarah Connor Chronicles » Theories about TSCC and Cameron's unsolved plots
Theories about TSCC and Cameron's unsolved plots
ChrisDate: Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 10:12 | Message # 211
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Quote (FordStaff)
Man I really wish you would not make me spell out why a robot army would not waste time on making robot infiltrators that get sensation from sex


Skynet is not a Robot army its an AI that is so obsessed with killing John Connor it invents a time machine to send machines back in time to kill him

Saying Cameron would get something from sex and have sensors in the appropriate location is not any stretch yet you seem to want to argue a mute point when no one has claimed Cameron would be able to have a screaming orgasm just pointed out that it is highly likely that she would be capable of getting something from the act itself

Quote (FordStaff)
Perhaps some sensors would be a good idea if sex is anticipated for the infiltrators (unlikely) so the terminator does not harm the person they will have sex with (they are huge hunks of metal after all). These sensors to be efficient would have nothing to do with giving pleasure to the infiltrator however, their purpose would be to relay whatever information would be relevant to the terminator/infiltrator (whatever the hell that would be). Other than that I see no reason Sky-net would use its resources and research into the possibilities of infiltrator sex.


Being able to feel means they can feel good and bad things, sex must have been anticipated for the infiltrators given it showed Vick in a marriage it doesnt matter if the sensor is there to prevent the machine from harming the other person its up to the individual how they interperet the information biggrin
 
BlaziusDate: Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 20:43 | Message # 212
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Quote (FordStaff)
From this description it sounds to me as if Cameron does love John Connor, but love need not have any connotations of sexual lust, after all she is a robot and will be asexual. She has a drive to kill John Connor and yet keeps it in check? That would make no sense unless she loves John quite a bit, and this love may not be the equivalent of human love, but there must be something holding Cameron back all the same. I see no reason it could not be something we could call love so long as we understand it is not quite typical.

Cameron would never be attracted to John physically it would make no sense, If Cameron were to get physical with John it would not be to satisfy herself, it would be for a separate purpose. Maybe the purpose would be to manipulate him, or perhaps she really does love him and she wants to satisfy him, but either way robots will not feel lust.


Thats exactly my point. My post was intended to be a "Why Jameron is impossible " post. Most people are obsessed with robot sex and wants to believe that Cameron is sexually attracted to John. I wanted to point out that its impossible. Also I don't deny she "loves" John but even that you can't call "love" as human love.

Its something similar but yet very different. She is not human, she is a different species. Synthetic lifeform if you want to go by ME's accurate description on the Geth. She doesn't have a hormonal system, genitals and whatever it needs to be in your brain to have sexual drive. She is an entirely logic based entity with an advanced computer as her brain.

As @Fordstaff also correctly pointed out Cameron is very much like the androids of the classical higher sci-fi universes. She is not your typical sci-fi series robot with a magical emotion chip and Pinocchio effect. She was too complex for a typical television robot character and its just amazing how well she was portrayed. It also made the classical stories more personal I think. You won't ever be that involved in a character as in a hot teenage girl who likes to walk around in underwear every now and then love

Seriously people misunderstood this show I think. Its not like the Terminator movies at all. Its not just an action movie with big explosions. With Camerons character its a complex, thought inducting sci-fi about robots, questions like What is life?, Who can be seen as sentient?, If a robot can feel ? And more. Cameron is the best robot character on TV hands down.

It took proficient writers and Summer godly acting abilities to translate this kind of character into TV format but its the first time it works so well I think.

Regarding if Skynet built it in Cameron or not. I don't think so. The plan was to sneak into Johns camp as Alison and when John meets with her possibly for a briefing for a mission she rips his head off. I don't even think there is everything on place on her bottom( torso seems fine through, we knew more if they showed everything but Summer probably wouldn't allow it). For the same reasons she probably doesn't have the receptors to registrate pleasure and even if she had then her brain was not designed to translate it as "pleasure". All she can feel is pressure( she'd be indeed useless without it because without it she'd just crush human made weapons into dust while trying to pull the trigger) and temperature.

BTW Fordstaff summed up pretty well what I wanted to say why Cameron can't be romantically interested in John so I won't say more.



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BlaziusDate: Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 20:51 | Message # 213
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Quote (Chris)
Saying Cameron would get something from sex and have sensors in the appropriate location is not any stretch yet you seem to want to argue a mute point when no one has claimed Cameron would be able to have a screaming orgasm just pointed out that it is highly likely that she would be capable of getting something from the act itself


But the point is that she wouldn't be able to get anything from the act and she has no sexual drive to seek somebody who she can have sex with. Even if she had the required sensors which she doesn't have, her brain would be required to translate the impulses the sensors send into pleasure. But what pleasure means in A.I. terms is impossible to tell, they are so alien to us that these words are irrelevant to discuss. And how would Skynet make them feel pleasure if itself probably doesn't know what it is?

The only thing she can get from it is satisfaction that she made John happy. BTW we don't even know if she wants to make him happy, all we know is that she wants to keep him safe. If she wanted to please him with sex then she'd have done it long ago I think. But she didn't do it so either she doesn't want to or she can't( e.g. she doesn't have everything in place)

Althrough I don't want to start a debate about the psychology of a fictional A.I.


Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!


Message edited by Blazius - Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 20:59
 
chrisdvanneDate: Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 20:54 | Message # 214
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My contribution to the debate :

Click on images for bigger size
John and Cameron kiss in TSCC

Summer Glau and Thomas Dekker in TSCC


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FordStaffDate: Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 21:50 | Message # 215
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Quote
As @Fordstaff also correctly pointed out Cameron is very much like the androids of the classical higher sci-fi universes. She is not your typical sci-fi series robot with a magical emotion chip and Pinocchio effect. She was too complex for a typical television robot character and its just amazing how well she was portrayed. It also made the classical stories more personal I think. You won't ever be that involved in a character as in a hot teenage girl who likes to walk around in underwear every now and then love

Seriously people misunderstood this show I think. Its not like the Terminator movies at all. Its not just an action movie with big explosions. With Camerons character its a complex, thought inducting sci-fi about robots, questions like What is life?, Who can be seen as sentient?, If a robot can feel ? And more. Cameron is the best robot character on TV hands down.


OK good I am not the only one thinking this. Honestly I find the Terminator movies alright, about in line with other types of movies of their type. T:TSCC on the other hand is far more interesting because it explores more complex robot questions, while we also get to get the action scenes of the movie. YEt it does this with Cameron still remaining completely logical JUST like in Asimov's robots books, very interesting because this is rarely how its done on television as you say Blazius. Typically they just have emotion chips and what not like with Data on ST:TNG.


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BlaziusDate: Thursday, 24 Nov 2011, 01:46 | Message # 216
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Quote (FordStaff)
OK good I am not the only one thinking this. Honestly I find the Terminator movies alright, about in line with other types of movies of their type. T:TSCC on the other hand is far more interesting because it explores more complex robot questions, while we also get to get the action scenes of the movie. YEt it does this with Cameron still remaining completely logical JUST like in Asimov's robots books, very interesting because this is rarely how its done on television as you say Blazius. Typically they just have emotion chips and what not like with Data on ST:TNG.


Indeed. She had the same characteristics as an Asimov robot but at the same time she had badass moments as in a Terminator movie. What is more perfect than that?

I think even the "Terminator" label harmed the show extensively in the end. It helped made it popular with a popular name granted, however after the initial hype people got disappointed because they didn't get what it is about. And everybody missed the point entirely with Cameron because they absolutely don't expect such complexity from something labeled "Terminator" . Cameron is not the TX or Data or Andromeda, she is a classical Asimov-ish robot and the difference is huge if you ask me.

I respect Friedman because he had guts to do it in a terminator series and that he was clever enough to hire the only woman capable to play the role, that is also a huge + for me. Even if it was short the things they did with Cameron in those few episodes worth everything.



Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!
 
termi-ninja-torDate: Thursday, 24 Nov 2011, 03:13 | Message # 217
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Could Cameron behave emotionally?

What are emotions, anyhow? For people, generally instincts and historical factors combine to define a set of likes and dislikes for each of us. Like some guys are attracted to tall blondes. The set of likes and dislikes causes physiological reactions and thought processes that are generally called emotions. Emotions generate a proposed behavior pattern that could replace the normal rational or habitual behavior pattern. Remember Arnie had a menu of choices for what to say to the janitor who said his room smelled bad. To such a menu, emotions would add less rational responses that reflect such feelings, and then they would bias him or her toward choosing these emotional responses. Like a young mother may choose to step in front of a bullet to save her child, an example where love wins out over the rationality of self preservation.

Emotional responses are like instinctive responses, a different set of choices besides just the most rational choices. For Cameron, her base terminator programming is like a strong instinct. It causes thought processes which propose certain behaviors. Like her base terminator programming tells her to eliminate security threats, so this causes her to be constantly thinking about security and evaluating threat levels, which leads her to killing birds almost involuntarily. She is eventually able to overcome this instinct-driven behavior pattern when she refuses to kill Riley. This is akin to a person's rational thought overcoming his instinctive or emotional reactions, like a tightrope walker must overcome his instinctive fear of heights every time he steps out onto the high wire.

Cameron knows the definitions of all the human emotions, so it should be easy for her to load in a set of emotional thought processes and let them propose alternative behaviors. Like if she wanted to assess John's stress level, she could grip his arm, caress his neck, or kiss him on the lips. They would all give her enough skin contact to take a reading. And she could feel an internal bias toward kissing him even if she ultimately caresses his neck instead. When she thought she was Allison at the halfway house, her behavior was driven by a set of emotional thought processes when she pushed John away and when she cried in the counselors office. Her tears showed her body's response to her emotional thought patterns, although I doubt she has the capability to experience the full range of human physiological reactions.

Can Cameron experience emotions? Clearly, by loading a set of emotional thought processes, Cameron would experience at least the mental part of feeling emotion, like having to choose between rational behavior and emotional behavior when she is confronted with a choice as we saw her struggling not to kill Riley. It would not be inconceivable that we could see her occasionally succumb to the emotional choice and do something irrational, like kissing John spontaneously. We don't know how much of the physiological aspect of being emotional she could experience, beyond crying, since it just really depends on the capabilities designed into her flesh covering.
 
ChrisDate: Thursday, 24 Nov 2011, 04:33 | Message # 218
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Cameron shows she feels emotions on several occasions as well as doing things based on emotion more then logic her purple jacket is more important to her when their things get stolen she demands the jacket back without giving thought to their money and credit cards Sarah had to ask for that.

As termi brought up about Riley and her not being able to kill Riley, clearly it was logical for her to kill her, as john even said since when is it a decision for you then it even shows Cameron looking upset as she is talking to John about it and when she believes she is Allison when she finds out Jodie lied to her she gets mad and chokes her like she did to Allison for lying to her during interrogation.

Cameron also allowed John out of her sight on regular occasions when it would not be rational to do she, she would have had to have known he snuck out the house that night he went to Mexico given her enhanced hearing yet she let him go its only early stages but Cameron was showing that her decisions were being effected by more then just logic
 
chrisdvanneDate: Thursday, 24 Nov 2011, 09:58 | Message # 219
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Quote (Blazius)
Seriously people misunderstood this show I think. Its not like the Terminator movies at all. Its not just an action movie with big explosions. With Camerons character its a complex, thought inducting sci-fi about robots, questions like What is life?, Who can be seen as sentient?, If a robot can feel ?

Indeed, many fans of the Terminator franchise didn't like the serie, because as you said, TSCC is not about spectacular car chases or explosions or buff actors with Austrian accent but explore the evolution of an A.I. and there is room for character development.

Joseph Lee, horror and sci-fi columnist at 411mania (specialised in pop culture), released today an article dedicated to the Terminator franchise.
I think it sums up pretty good how TSCC was received by the majority of the Terminator's franchise fans : they watched the pilot and gave up a few episodes later because the serie did not matched their expectations.

Quote (411mania)
Before we end our look at Skynet's takeover of humanity, let's take a quick glimpse at The Sarah Connor Chronicles. For my personal opinion on the series, I stopped watching in the middle of season one. Partially because I was in college at the time and had things to do and partially because I felt it dropped off pretty quickly after the pilot and they tried to form what appeared to be romantic relationship between John and the terminator. It could have went a different way, and maybe I'll pick it up on Netflix some time to catch up. But what I saw, I didn't like.

This series ignores the fact that the third film ever happened and takes us to just after Judgment Day when the T-1000 and T-800 have been destroyed (spoiler alert on a twenty year old movie). A new terminator, the T-888, as well as an unknown female model are sent back. The female is their protector now, and played by cult favorite Summer Glau (Firefly). I do like the casting in the roles of John and Sarah Connor. Thomas Dekker looks like he could have been Edward Furlong, and Lena Headey is just underrated in general.

The show was canceled after two seasons, so we'll never know exactly what happened to the characters. If you're wondering why it was canceled, the ratings weren't exactly great, and it didn't help that the show was eventually given the Friday night death slot.


Side note : this guy wrote an article about the Terminator franchise but DID NOT watched the serie, how could he be credible when talking about it. The problem is that his readers are also misinformed in the process.


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ChrisDate: Thursday, 24 Nov 2011, 22:46 | Message # 220
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Quote (michelangelo)
Side note : this guy wrote an article about the Terminator franchise but DID NOT watched the serie, how could he be credible when talking about it. The problem is that his readers are also misinformed in the process.


He is a regular reporter/critic then, nothing new about them giving their opinions about something if people don't take everything that is written in the papers/magazines or talked about on TV with the view point that its 1 persons opinion and aas he even admits too a clearly uniformed 1 thats their problem but he is right that TSCC was not the typical Terminator Franchise product it actually gave you more to think about to enjoy the product rather then being able to switch your brain off and enjoy it like you could with the movies.
 
chrisdvanneDate: Friday, 25 Nov 2011, 00:53 | Message # 221
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In my opinion, the role of a tv critic is to invite its reader to discover something new and interesting, not especially mainstream. If one wants to see something entertaining and that doesn't require much brain, he just needs to take the paper and see what movies has the biggest box office or what serie is the most watched, no need to have the opinion of a movie/tv critic.
In this case, saying that he didn't like the serie after watching only the first episodes is a little weak imo; his vision of the show is completely skewed because he missed all the developments in the second part of season one and in the second season; i'm not sure he would have liked it but at least that would be for a good reason.

Chris, as a non english native, i have difficulties to understand you because you skip the punctuation wacko


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BlaziusDate: Friday, 25 Nov 2011, 02:31 | Message # 222
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Quote (michelangelo)
In this case, saying that he didn't like the serie after watching only the first episodes is a little weak imo; his vision of the show is completely skewed because he missed all the developments in the second part of season one and in the second season; i'm not sure he would have liked it but at least that would be for a good reason.


He knows nothing about the series obviously if he only watched the first half of the first season. The pilot is entirely different than the show to start with( Summer plays Cameron as a normal girl for example). A few episodes afterwards are not enough to judge the show and Summer too only starts to change from superb to godly afterwards with her memorable episodes which he obviously missed too.

Quote (michelangelo)
I felt it dropped off pretty quickly after the pilot and they tried to form what appeared to be romantic relationship between John and the terminator.


Its obvious where he came from. The pilot was full of shiny action sequences and was higher budget as it seemed. Then they cut down on the effects and started to show more clever stuff which were too much for him to understand obviously.

I think too that was similar with many terminator fans. I can understand their doubts, I had too( but mine concerned how the characters would be portrayed rather than how many explosions will be) but not even trying to enjoy it out of grudge is not the way to go.

And thats even more stupid that the columnist feeds his readers with misinformation while he obviously doesn't know a thing about TSCC.


Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!
 
ChrisDate: Friday, 25 Nov 2011, 03:41 | Message # 223
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Quote (michelangelo)
Chris, as a non english native, i have difficulties to understand you because you skip the punctuation


I will endeavour to do better as its no fun trying to interperet and work out bad punctation. cool

One thing I dont understand is I saw the numbers of viewers for TSCC and it was similar to the numbers of viewers for the series Smallville.

That said and done why is it one show has their viewer numbers being referred to as good while the other one has it referred to as being a poor following I do understand that TSCC started out much higher with their fan base but I would have thought their numbers were still sufficient to be worth screening since it was for Smallville.
 
chrisdvanneDate: Friday, 25 Nov 2011, 03:56 | Message # 224
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Quote (Chris)
One thing I dont understand is I saw the numbers of viewers for TSCC and it was similar to the numbers of viewers for the series Smallville.

That said and done why is it one show has their viewer numbers being referred to as good while the other one has it referred to as being a poor following I do understand that TSCC started out much higher with their fan base but I would have thought their numbers were still sufficient to be worth screening since it was for Smallville.

It's been explained several times on the Wiki.
Even if the CW is one of the big 4 broadcast network (ABC, CBS, FOX, CW), it has historically not the same audience as the other three. The threshold for a show to be in danger of being cancelled is not the same for the CW, it's much lower than for the other three. It means a show that has a 1.1 rating in 18-49 demo and 1.8 millions viewers will be a hit on the CW but a big fail for the other networks. Don't forget that the ads revenue are mostly based on that 18-49 adult demo.
The threshold is not the same for the different networks, so that you cannot compare two shows with the same ratings on two different networks. To know if a show is in danger of being cancelled, you must compare its ratings to the average ratings from all shows within the same network.


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chrisdvanneDate: Friday, 25 Nov 2011, 18:23 | Message # 225
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I managed to find a rarely seen video of Summer Glau, interviewed during StarFest 2010 at Denver; the sneak peek (1 minute long) is known by the fansites but not the entire interview (7 min long).

Summer talks her roles in Firefly and mostly Terminator : The Sarah Connor Chronicles and the difficulties of performing characters of such wide emotional range.

The interviewer was probably a hard core fan of TSCC and it shows during the interview because he asks the good questions and Summer is allowed to developp her opinion instead of avoiding the traps from interviewers like Kevin Pereira or others (sorry for the ads at the begining but YouTube didn't allow me to upload the video).

 
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