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Summer-Glau.com Forum » Filmography » Terminator the Sarah Connor Chronicles » Theories about TSCC and Cameron's unsolved plots
Theories about TSCC and Cameron's unsolved plots
KrelleKDate: Sunday, 20 Nov 2011, 19:12 | Message # 196
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Missiles are complicated and the Resistance would have scraps to work with, I would consider it impossible to take out satellites, even if we assumed they had many engineers of differing fields who have the know how to do it (and this is unlikely in and of itself). It would be the apocalypse lottery ticket to have enough technical know how at one location to construct such things, after all engineers generally live in fairly populated areas that will be getting nuked, the do not live in the country.


Well I was thinking of hitting the ground based stations in what I wrote earlier on, not the Sats themself, atleast not early in the war, maybe something could be done later in the war with stolen tech from Skynet, and/or disrupting signals could perhaps be thougth to to be used as well, not in the global way the millitary was getting tricked into doing in T4, but in that animated series there is one(John Connor) who can somehow make some sort of disrupting signal that unfortunatelly also hits the resistance radios


Message edited by KrelleK - Sunday, 20 Nov 2011, 19:12
 
KrelleKDate: Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011, 08:16 | Message # 197
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Had a thought about the thing about the some machines going bad, that they do not know why, it came to me yesterday, thinking of one mention the 3 laws of robots, and then how the machines sent back in time knock out young John C. seems to lose all thought of stealth, and shoots all over the place to kill him, instead of slowly move in on its target, so Y-Jonh will not be able to dodge it. if they find out he is nearby.

so It hit me, the reprogrammed machines is programmed to take action against any enemy of John or perhaps the Resistance in it´s entirety, so it hit me what would happen if a reprogrammed machine just happens to overhear something indicating that a resistance soldier happens to say something to the effect that they do want to do something about the idea of Reprogrammed machine perhaps bring it to John, and the machine perhaps misunderstand, or understand perfectly and wish to interfere, by taking out the upriser/uprisers before it spreads, and attacks them. and perhaps some resistance fighters nearby either is in on it or just happens to be nearby rase there weapons and it the manchine see it as insurection, and the shooting lure people to try find out what is happening, and also sees the supposed friendly machine shooting at there people, and it is probably a high chance that a chip might get destroyed so they cannot find out what happened. It is just some thoughts biggrin
 
ChrisDate: Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011, 08:47 | Message # 198
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@Krellek it also helps to think of the machines as children as far as maturity goes I dont think they are reacting to information and defending the Resistance by killing random people like it was shown in TSCC it seems more like they hate the way the soldiers talk and treat them, treat someone or a pet badly enough eventually they will turn on you regardless of the programming since it was shown by Cameron that they can override their programming if the desire is there only Cameron overrode her core programming not the Resistance reprogramming which would probably be easier (in theory).

Because Cameron is the only Cyborg that has even been shown in any great detail or lengths its hard to say how developed the machines could become Cameron makes a joke in TSCC season 1 which John and Sarah dont realise but she says "Fooled you" to them even the T 800 developed a lot in 2 days as far as behaving more human goes, smiling when he picked up the mini gun "Hasta La Vista Baby" before he shoots the frozen T 1000 so its possible that the Cyborgs in the Resistance bases decided they dont like the soldiers since they were always treated negatively rather then having a positive influence like John provided
 
KrelleKDate: Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011, 15:43 | Message # 199
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@Krellek it also helps to think of the machines as children as far as maturity goes I dont think they are reacting to information and defending the Resistance by killing random people like it was shown in TSCC it seems more like they hate the way the soldiers talk and treat them, treat someone or a pet badly enough eventually they will turn on you regardless of the programming since it was shown by Cameron that they can override their programming if the desire is there only Cameron overrode her core programming not the Resistance reprogramming which would probably be easier (in theory).


maybe i do think of them as children in some way, the thing with some of the resistance soldiers treat the reprogrammed machines badly, I had thought of something similar situation, that one/more soldier arrives to a resitance base and is asked to submit to a seach of some kind, or something, and that they says no this, not wishing to submit to a former enemy, perhaps even react slightly offensive(raising/shouldrering there weapons) and the machine reacts to as the LM did in the submarine(attacks the one ready to shoot) an people that might have missed what was going on between them, sees them as gone bad, and in so begins to shoot too at them and in so gets recognised as enemies too.

I also like the thought of them being allowed to evolve under the resistance, perhaps if what you suggest is what happens, then perhaps the resistance should ask there machines to go to John for problems such as these, or one of the "older machines" there has been there longer. to repport the abuse
 
BlaziusDate: Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 02:26 | Message # 200
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It just means that she had a mission to complete (deliver Sarah) and it was not the time to "just making conversation".


Its a theory and observation I came up with after another watch of Born to Run. This theory regarding that the bed scene is actually reinforcing the idea that Cameron has no romantic feelings for John.

Remember the conversation.

"Cameron Phillips: You need to understand how it works.
John Connor: What?
Cameron Phillips: This chip. This body. The software is designed to terminate humans. The hardware is designed to terminate humans. That's our sole function.
John Connor: Not you.
Cameron Phillips: No. Not anymore. But what was there is still there. It'll always be there.
John Connor: So down deep... you want to kill me.
Cameron Phillips: Yes. I do.
John Connor: And why don't you?
Cameron Phillips: I might someday. "

Otherwise this conversation doesn't even make sense why would she tell these now? Cameron is adamant that her true nature cannot be changed, that her primal instinct drives her to kill humans, a primal instinct which is the equivalent of the humans instinct to reproduce. I think this time she wants to tell John in her unique way( given that they might not meet again) that what she will do next is not to seduce John given that she is absolutely incapable of romantic love and has no sexual drive instead there is an urge to kill him which she can only subdue because of her sentience. Thats why John needs to understand "how it works". She is not human and therefore works differently than John.

Again everybody is entitled to believe anything, I'm just saying that its not too straight even here what Cameron really wants.


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FordStaffDate: Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 03:04 | Message # 201
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Otherwise this conversation doesn't even make sense why would she tell these now? Cameron is adamant that her true nature cannot be changed, that her primal instinct drives her to kill humans, a primal instinct which is the equivalent of the humans instinct to reproduce. I think this time she wants to tell John in her unique way( given that they might not meet again) that what she will do next is not to seduce John given that she is absolutely incapable of romantic love and has no sexual drive instead there is an urge to kill him which she can only subdue because of her sentience. Thats why John needs to understand "how it works". She is not human and therefore works differently than John.


From this description it sounds to me as if Cameron does love John Connor, but love need not have any connotations of sexual lust, after all she is a robot and will be asexual. She has a drive to kill John Connor and yet keeps it in check? That would make no sense unless she loves John quite a bit, and this love may not be the equivalent of human love, but there must be something holding Cameron back all the same. I see no reason it could not be something we could call love so long as we understand it is not quite typical.

Cameron would never be attracted to John physically it would make no sense, If Cameron were to get physical with John it would not be to satisfy herself, it would be for a separate purpose. Maybe the purpose would be to manipulate him, or perhaps she really does love him and she wants to satisfy him, but either way robots will not feel lust.


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Message edited by FordStaff - Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 03:11
 
ChrisDate: Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 03:12 | Message # 202
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Quote (Blazius)
"Cameron Phillips: You need to understand how it works.
John Connor: What?
Cameron Phillips: This chip. This body. The software is designed to terminate humans. The hardware is designed to terminate humans. That's our sole function.
John Connor: Not you.
Cameron Phillips: No. Not anymore. But what was there is still there. It'll always be there.

Depends on how you want to translate what she says
She says her sole function is not to terminate humans but that everything still exists there

John Connor: So down deep... you want to kill me.
Cameron Phillips: Yes. I do.
John Connor: And why don't you?
Cameron Phillips: I might someday. "


I need you to understand that all the machines you reprogram in the future can go bad because I have to go away now and can't protect you anymore or more importantly I might get sick and try to kill you again next time I might suceed should I ever come back

If Cameron had no feelings for John then she wouldn't have looked so miffed that John was hanging around Riley all the time, does she have a sex drive, hard to say since she can control what she feels more then people can after all she can feel yet she doesnt roll around in agony when she gets shot or thrown through a wall

Cameron had absolutely no reason to let John hold her power cell and have him sitting over her like she did unless she wanted him to be close to her and holding her power cell is very much like placing her heart in his hands plus it also let him know that she was not responsible for making Sarah sick the last issue between John and Cameron so that when she went away he wouldn't have any hang ups about her.

I also think its safer to say that Cameron wouldnt know how to seduce John since she is roughly 2 to 4 years old and probably never had any physical relations she commented the way Vick touched his "wife" that is was effective if she had programming to seduce John she wouldn't have been surprised by Vicks wifes reaction to the contact, (she said their chips were wiped when reprogrammed) I think she tried a few times to show John she could be what ever he wanted changing clothes and lying next to him on the bed like Riley sat on the bed next to John talking. Cameron was shown to have far to many normal human behaviours and reactions to things to say she is not capeable of feeling more emotionally but more time was needed for her to grow
 
ChrisDate: Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 03:16 | Message # 203
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Cameron would never be attracted to John physically it would make no sense, If Cameron were to get physical with John it would not be to satisfy herself, it would be for a separate purpose. Maybe the purpose would be to manipulate him, or perhaps she really does love him and she wants to satisfy him, but either way robots will not feel lust.


Thats always the thing that was never divulged about Cameron just how close a copy to being human is she to say a robot would not feel lust is like saying a robot wouldnt get happy about winning money playing snooker/pool in a bar Cameron's primary reason for being physical with John would definately have been for John's benefit but hard to say if she would actually get anything from the experience herself.
 
FordStaffDate: Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 03:27 | Message # 204
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Thats always the thing that was never divulged about Cameron just how close a copy to being human is she to say a robot would not feel lust is like saying a robot wouldnt get happy about winning money playing snooker/pool in a bar Cameron's primary reason for being physical with John would definately have been for John's benefit but hard to say if she would actually get anything from the experience herself.


Well I guess its possible that they designed her with the ability to feel pleasure from sex, but lets be honest there is no reason that sky-net would design such a useless function. Perhaps you did not mean sexual pleasure, Are you trying to suggest Cameron may get pleasure from pleasing John with sex? If so this would be perfectly reasonable since she has actions that can be interpreted to show a love for John.

Cameron is presented as a purely logical robot with no emotions so I see no reason to think otherwise, the only glimpse of such things is the fact that she refrains herself from killing John. So you could say she loves John, but it is not the same as human love.

It was said that she was designed to be more human like than any other robot, but this is hardly unprecedented in fiction. I keep referencing Isaac Asimov's robots, but it is fairly relevant. In the Robot books there are only two major robot characters, one of them Daneel Olivaw is very very similar to Cameron. Like Cameron he is also one of very few robots in his fictional universe built to resemble humans very closely (if you know what I mean wink ), and both are also considered the closest resembling human brain functions so that they could understand humans far more than normal robots.

I mention this characters because like Cameron he does "love" a certain human (and a robot), but it is in a purely robotic way in description and I feel that this is how it would be if Cameron does love John. It is not human love at all. Also of note is that Daneel maintains purely logical reasoning with no emotion despite being designed to match humans, much like Cameron. They are very very similar characters now that I think of it, the only main difference is that Daneel is hindered by the laws of robotics (which he subverts or tries to for his friend he loves), whereas Cameron is hindered by her killing instincts (which she subverts or tries to for John Connor).


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Message edited by FordStaff - Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 03:45
 
ChrisDate: Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 03:52 | Message # 205
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Cameron is presented as a purely logical robot with no emotions so I see no reason to think otherwise, the only glimpse of such things is the fact that she refrains herself from killing John. So you could say she loves John, but it is not the same as human love.


You need to watch the show closer Cameron has emotions she is shown to have reactions to things when no one is watching her to see them so that means she is not having the reaction for someone's benefit ie being purely logical

Since Cameron can feel its hard to say what sort of pleasure if any she would get from sex to assume she would get none just because Skynet didnt program for it is flawed after all Skynet wouldn't have programmed Cameron to love someone, yet she is has some form of love for John even the T 800 in T 2 could be said to show a form of love for John.

I wouldnt say Asimov robots are relevant either not for everyone at least you choose to link the Cyborgs seen in The Terminator series to Asimov robots rather then taking them for what they get shown as in the movies and series which maybe similar to Asimov robots yet they are different they arent designed to be more human they are designed to look just like humans and move amoung them undetected as to how human they can become given enough time is never disclosed in the Terminator movies or series
 
FordStaffDate: Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 04:02 | Message # 206
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Since Cameron can feel its hard to say what sort of pleasure if any she would get from sex to assume she would get none just because Skynet didnt program for it is flawed after all Skynet wouldn't have programmed Cameron to love someone, yet she is has some form of love for John even the T 800 in T 2 could be said to show a form of love for John.


I only meant physical pleasure. Perhaps she would get pleasure from pleasing John, that is if she really loves him. For there to be physical pleasure would require more than programing there would need to be some hardware to make it happen, and this is not something that I believe sky-net would waste time on.

Quote
I wouldnt say Asimov robots are relevant either not for everyone at least you choose to link the Cyborgs seen in The Terminator series to Asimov robots rather then taking them for what they get shown as in the movies and series which maybe similar to Asimov robots yet they are different they arent designed to be more human they are designed to look just like humans and move amoung them undetected as to how human they can become given enough time is never disclosed in the Terminator movies or series


Asimov did it first, read what I said about Daneel, he was designed for the exact purposes that Cameron was (except the killing) , he is very very very similar to Cameron as a character. He seeks to defy his programing and accomplish things on his own much liker her. His design is described much like Cameron as being more human to match understand and live among the humans. A similar model to the Daneel character even already has the robotic sex down which is why I did this wink when I said Daneel was designed to be very similar to human anatomy and it is likely the same for Cameron. He even developed a special relationship with a human exactly as Cameron is with John, to the point of love, but in a purely robotic manner. (and he had to contend with a robot hating human, unlike John, much more difficult).

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You need to watch the show closer Cameron has emotions she is shown to have reactions to things when no one is watching her to see them so that means she is not having the reaction for someone's benefit ie being purely logical


Her actions and thinking process is never shown to be affected in such a way though, as I said the character I referenced before, Daneel Olivaw also did such things. Now that I am comparing the characters I would be massively surprised if there was no inspiration involved here.


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Message edited by FordStaff - Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 04:04
 
ChrisDate: Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 04:12 | Message # 207
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I only meant physical pleasure. Perhaps she would get pleasure from pleasing John, that is if she really loves him. For there to be physical pleasure would require more than programing there would need to be some hardware to make it happen, and this is not something that I believe sky-net would waste time on.


Cameron can feel she tells John she can feel, that doesnt mean she needs additional hardware to to enjoy sensations.
Cameron says "I have to save John" to Derek in the Mexico Prison when she enters look at Derek's reaction to the words and how she says them her processes are shown to be effected by her feelings she gets upset by things john says and does she looks displeased with being given laundry to do instead of doing that she goes out to the library and tracks down Myron Stark before returning home and doing her chore. In the series Cameron went from standing watch at the window like the T 800 to doing things with her spare time for no reason even watching John sleep like Sarah did at times
 
FordStaffDate: Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 04:22 | Message # 208
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Cameron can feel she tells John she can feel, that doesnt mean she needs additional hardware to to enjoy sensations.


Yeah she would, unless your trying to tell me that I will have just as much sensation in my elbow as I do at my fingertips without more nerve endings, just by trying to feel it happen. The sensations felt in the brain from extremities do not just happen, I am talking about feeling physical pleasure from the sex with John, not about some purely mental pleasure. For her to feel physical sensation there needs to be hardware for it (for humans it's just more nerve endings) and since feeling sex is hardly useful for the Cameron's purpose sky-net is not going to waste resources for it .

You should not be so dismissive towards Asimovian style robots, the Terminators are presented very similarly. Cameron speech about how "Robots can not be cruel" seems precisely like something Asimovian style robots would say, that is if they killed people. Particularly Asimov's Humaniform robots (the ones that look like humans), they are particularly similar to Cameron (so much so, that I am finding it difficult to believe there is no inspiration for Cameron from Daneel Olivaw). Just because they are bound by the three laws does not mean they are completely different, in fact they are the same, Terminators just have their own laws they are bound by from sky-net.

Even if there are differences I doubt there is anyone who has had greater influence on the portrayal of robots in fiction than Issac Asimov, the terminators are not outside of that. Robotics was not even a word until Isaac Asimov termed it, he assumed it already existed at the time.


Keep Flying - Not much, but it's enough.

Message edited by FordStaff - Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 04:52
 
ChrisDate: Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 06:16 | Message # 209
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Well I guess its possible that they designed her with the ability to feel pleasure from sex, but lets be honest there is no reason that sky-net would design such a useless function.


Why would something be deemed a useless function when they are built to be infiltrators (especially Cameron) Skynet went to enough trouble to make them feel the cold or heat along with wind why wouldn't they have similar attention to detail else where although it would be funny to be found out with the little kid accidentally head butts them and they show no reaction to contact, that doesnt mean they feel exactly the same sensations a person would but to assume they would feel virtually nothing like they were hit on the knee assumes alot.

In T3 when the TX grabs the T 850 by the groin he actually looks confused as to why she is grabbing him there but he definately has a surprised look when she squeezes
 
FordStaffDate: Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 06:37 | Message # 210
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Why would something be deemed a useless function when they are built to be infiltrators (especially Cameron) Skynet went to enough trouble to make them feel the cold or heat along with wind why wouldn't they have similar attention to detail else where


Man I really wish you would not make me spell out why a robot army would not waste time on making robot infiltrators that get sensation from sex biggrin . Your making a lot of wrong assumptions about what I have been saying, I am not claiming that the terminators are not built with sensors for sensation of the environment, they could be very useful for the reasons you stated.

Feeling sensation from having sex with a human however is not something that is useful, not only is it unlikely that infiltrators would be in a situation where sex would be useful - there is no point in wasting resources to make it so they can feel it, all they would need to do is observe some porn (or real people going at it whatever) and reenact it (an ability Cameron has already demonstrated, nothing extra required).

Perhaps some sensors would be a good idea if sex is anticipated for the infiltrators (unlikely) so the terminator does not harm the person they will have sex with (they are huge hunks of metal after all). These sensors to be efficient would have nothing to do with giving pleasure to the infiltrator however, their purpose would be to relay whatever information would be relevant to the terminator/infiltrator (whatever the hell that would be). Other than that I see no reason Sky-net would use its resources and research into the possibilities of infiltrator sex.

Sky-net and the robotic intelligence of the Terminator verse in general, have always been portrayed as completely pragmatic. If something is not useful then they will not waste resources on it.

Wow, the internet is probably the only place where there can be discussions of whether a robotic over-mind would manufacture robots who would feel sensation from sex. I'm not so sure how to feel about that, especially since this is the one subject that I stay on topic for, of course wacko .


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Message edited by FordStaff - Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011, 06:45
 
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