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Summer-Glau.com Forum » Off Topic » The Water Cooler » Halloween @ Summer Glau Wiki : dress like your fav character
Halloween @ Summer Glau Wiki : dress like your fav character
chrisdvanneDate: Thursday, 27 Oct 2011, 12:04 | Message # 16
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Iirc, Willow's power comes from an ancient native source like the 5 elements (Water, Fire,...) and she practices also at the begining of the serie.

Don't forget we're talking sci-fi and fantasy; in Charmed or The Vampire Diaries universe, witches of Salem are as real as vampires and werewolves. "Real traditional witches" as you said doesn't mean anything : it's all about the representation of this witches in literature or movies/series. And what i'm saying is that this representation has changed in favor of a positive image. Most of the time, the witches help the hero for the sake of good (though there is still witches in the dark side most of the time). But all references to a satanic power have disapeared.


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BlaziusDate: Thursday, 27 Oct 2011, 19:42 | Message # 17
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Quote (michelangelo)
Iirc, Willow's power comes from an ancient native source like the 5 elements (Water, Fire,...) and she practices also at the begining of the serie.

Don't forget we're talking sci-fi and fantasy; in Charmed or The Vampire Diaries universe, witches of Salem are as real as vampires and werewolves. "Real traditional witches" as you said doesn't mean anything : it's all about the representation of this witches in literature or movies/series. And what i'm saying is that this representation has changed in favor of a positive image. Most of the time, the witches help the hero for the sake of good (though there is still witches in the dark side most of the time). But all references to a satanic power have disapeared.


Thats my observation too. Witches became generally good or neutral now and the source of their power is the same as the wizards thus making witches essentially synonyms to female wizards. The general point is that they are powerful immortal women with magical abilities. As I said they are seem to replace fairies now( who were actually viewed as evil themselves in folklore in many points of history).

I didn't want to bring this up but FordStaff and everybody especially with feminist views should know one thing about witches.

The real witches of history especially between the 15th and 18th century were innocent victims of a large scale woman holocaust supervised by the Catholic Church of the era and its Inquisition. Women were brutally tortured and mutilated and then brutally executed mostly by burning them alive.

Targets of the witch-hunts were strong, powerful women often very beautiful. They were completely normal otherwise and they could be as religious as they wanted, didn't matter. I have absolutely no doubt that Summer Glau, Olivia Wilde, Natalie Portman or any beautiful female celebrity would be tortured and burned at the stake maybe along with their fans if we were living in that time period. Note: in that time period girls far less than 18 years old were considered a woman too so its very likely that they murdered children as well.

Often a neighbor or even husband who were in dispute with the woman could accuse her of being a witch and that usually resulted in her brutal and painful death(similar things happened during the Soviet and Nazi regimes BTW).

Its hard to estimate how many woman died during the witch hunts in Europe and North-America during the period. Wikipedia says from 40 000 to 100 000 but other sources on the net says 300 000 or even 9 000 000 people quoting various authors of books which were written about the hunts.

Note that Europe and North-America was far less populated than now and of course the church lacked the tools to conduct mass murders on a scale as the regimes of the 20th century however in their era it was just as a horrific act.

3/4 of the victims were female, the males who died were mostly loved ones of witches who chose to die with them. Curious why only females were the victims. I think its a valid theory that the ultimate purpose of the hunts was to break the will of the female population by executing their strongest members and inducting horror and fear among the weaker ones thus utterly subjugating them. If thats true then maybe the gender inequality and lack of strong female leaders we experience nowadays may be the results of the woman holocaust.

A few hundred years is nothing in history nor in the subconsciousness of humanity so I wouldn't be surprised to find out its effects are still noticable nowadays. If anything I'd support an international mourning day when we remember for their poor souls and that may be one step closer to ensure our female brethren that they don't have to fear being strong and powerful anymore.


Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
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FordStaffDate: Friday, 28 Oct 2011, 01:26 | Message # 18
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Quote
, the males who died were mostly loved ones of witches who chose to die with them.


That sounds suspiciously familiar. cool

Quote
Curious why only females were the victims. I think its a valid theory that the ultimate purpose of the hunts was to break the will of the female population by executing their strongest members and inducting horror and fear among the weaker ones thus utterly subjugating them.


I am fairly certain that had more to do with the fact that women had much less authority than men in those time periods. Therefore when it came down to a man's word to a woman's word the results were quite predictable (not to mention if you happen to be Catholic it was the only way besides appeal to the pope to get out of a marriage). The way you make the hunts sound deliberate and organized, but I am fairly certain that generally they only started when the accusations started flying.

Your mixing up the causation. Women were not being executed to force them into weak social positions. It is because women were in unfortunate and weak social positions that they were executed as witches more often than men.

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If anything I'd support an international mourning day when we remember for their poor souls and that may be one step closer to ensure our female brethren that they don't have to fear being strong and powerful anymore.


I suppose it could not hurt, but perhaps an International Mourning day for all innocents slaughtered during humanities run. Then it would not be so narrow and could cover everyone from Manchurian civilians in WW2, Hiroshima and Nagasaki victims (not instigating debate, but even if justified innocents still died and we should remember that), to Witch Hunt victims. It seems one thing history can teach you is that humanity has a knack for finding new and shinier ways and reasons to kill innocents.

Women should get a separate day if anything although not all gender issues are solely to the detriment of women. A day focusing on the problems arising from gender from any case would be better (though obviously the focus would be on women, but there are still damaging gender differences entrenched in men). In the end though increased education on the subject would extend the acknowledgment and solving of these problems far more than any other course of action (education always should remain the go to solution).


Keep Flying - Not much, but it's enough.

Message edited by FordStaff - Friday, 28 Oct 2011, 01:43
 
BlaziusDate: Friday, 28 Oct 2011, 03:33 | Message # 19
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Quote (FordStaff)
That sounds suspiciously familiar.


I hoped you will notice why I wrote that there wink

Quote (FordStaff)
I am fairly certain that had more to do with the fact that women had much less authority than men in those time periods. Therefore when it came down to a man's word to a woman's word the results were quite predictable (not to mention if you happen to be Catholic it was the only way besides appeal to the pope to get out of a marriage). The way you make the hunts sound deliberate and organized, but I am fairly certain that generally they only started when the accusations started flying.

Your mixing up the causation. Women were not being executed to force them into weak social positions. It is because women were in unfortunate and weak social positions that they were executed as witches more often than men.


If this could happen only because women were oppressed and they didn't have rights even to defend themselves then it wasn't exactly better than a coordinated effort to break their wills( maybe even worse). Also there is the question why strong, beautiful and powerful women were the main targets.

Its actually not my own theory but many more historian believes it as well, and I think it was mentioned in Da Vinci Code as well( I think unlike many things in Da Vinci code this one may not be too far fetched)

Of course things are not known for sure and I'm hesitating to truly believe to each theory. Feminists are claiming that it was against woman( which might be just propaganda), the Church may deny it( who may only deny it to defend their image).

I'm certain through that these events didn't exactly improve the women's situation.

And whatever was the intent the end result is still that they tortured and murdered thousands of innocent women.

Quote (FordStaff)
I suppose it could not hurt, but perhaps an International Mourning day for all innocents slaughtered during humanities run. Then it would not be so narrow and could cover everyone from Manchurian civilians in WW2, Hiroshima and Nagasaki victims (not instigating debate, but even if justified innocents still died and we should remember that), to Witch Hunt victims. It seems one thing history can teach you is that humanity has a knack for finding new and shinier ways and reasons to kill innocents.


Maybe thats true. Actually there were many tragedies in the history of humanity which fell under the radar over time but should definitely be remembered.

I just wanted to mention especially the Witch-hunts and I wrote this small historical briefing because this particular tragedy is often very misunderstood and got a little fuzzy due to the romantic images attached to the era and the Witches themselves. Sometimes images pop up that the victims were indeed followers of Satan and practiced witchcraft and such while in reality it was just a justification to the horrible acts committed( their murderers were the true evil). So I used to try to clear this up whenever this is mentioned.

I don't know maybe it should be made a separate day only because it needs full attention to clear up the misconceptions.


Quote (FordStaff)
Women should get a separate day if anything although not all gender issues are solely to the detriment of women. A day focusing on the problems arising from gender from any case would be better (though obviously the focus would be on women, but there are still damaging gender differences entrenched in men). In the end though increased education on the subject would extend the acknowledgment and solving of these problems far more than any other course of action (education always should remain the go to solution).


Both approach has advantages and disadvantages I think. If we make it separate then women's issues could get a full attention( they deserve it after all after so many oppression). On the other hand if we make it for both genders we could make it some kind of "make peace with each other" day which might be better. Or should we hold a separate days for both genders?


Quote (FordStaff)
In the end though increased education on the subject would extend the acknowledgment and solving of these problems far more than any other course of action (education always should remain the go to solution).


I very much agree with this. However education should be drastically reformed so instead of only teaching things required to professions there should be equal time spent to teach moralities and teach how horrific those acts were( and by moralities I don't mean the political propaganda of he current government). My observation is that the current education systems are not doing this well.


Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!
 
FordStaffDate: Friday, 28 Oct 2011, 08:53 | Message # 20
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I hoped you will notice why I wrote that there


On an existential/philosophical note I have always wondered whether I would have the strength to make such sacrifices if a situation called for it. I hope I would, but do you really know the man (even when the man is yourself) until he his held over the volcano? I swear I did not say that just to reference firefly yet again it just happened to fit biggrin .

Quote
On the other hand if we make it for both genders we could make it some kind of "make peace with each other" day which might be better. Or should we hold a separate days for both genders?


Well honestly days do not mean anything in the end anyways. Perhaps they can bring fleeting attention to a concern, but as you and I have said education should really be the concern with this matter.

On a side note it seems I have quite the propensity to derail every thread I participate in, hopefully this does not annoy anyone.


Keep Flying - Not much, but it's enough.

Message edited by FordStaff - Friday, 28 Oct 2011, 09:00
 
chrisdvanneDate: Friday, 28 Oct 2011, 09:13 | Message # 21
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Quote (FordStaff)
On a side note it seems I have quite the propensity to derail every thread I participate in, hopefully this does not annoy anyone.

This is what i wrote on the Comment that picture of Summer Glau! thread :
Quote (myself)
Also i created this thread to have a light-hearted look into pictures of Summer and expexted fanboys comments but it seems the very nature her fans, being passionate and all, always takes over (i can't help it myself) biggrin

You and others derailing is not a problem, the Summer Glau Wiki is a fansite made by and for the fans, we're not the New York Times. If a thread should need to comes back on the trails or messages should be moved to another thread, you will be noticed, don't worry.

I will reveal exclusively to you how i process on the Summer Glau Wiki : i create threads under a futile excuse, like this very thread for example, expecting response and debate from the members. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't cool


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DevoDate: Saturday, 29 Oct 2011, 20:52 | Message # 22
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I would look ridicules dressed as Cameron, or River for that matter.

I guess I'm stuck with Badger. :/

Quote (FordStaff)
I would like to point out that witches are certainly not good at all for the image of women despite them being Quotestrong and powerful Think about the origin of power for a witch and their counter parts the wizard. Often times a wizard either gains his powers through a combination of either innate ability or more often grueling work, intelligence, and study. Witches gain their powers through occult deals with Satan or Demons (or whatever evil force --- also notice that demons and satan are commonly portrayed as men which brings up even more unfortunate implications). Basically based off of wizard and witch common portrayal women can not gain power or ability of their own accord while men can. Hardly good morals. Not to mention the implication that only men can be good or evil while women are only pawns to be corrupted. Of course this dynamic is changing in current fiction for example in Harry Potter witches get their power from the same source as wizards and are equivalent ,but in the past these things are fairly common. I should add that I am not suggesting a boycott of witch costumes (its just for fun after all) merely pointing out calling witches strong woman figures may not be the best idea.


That is the Catholic Church propaganda campaign against Pagans. 'Witches' were priestesses in the Celtic religions. Unlike in Rome and the Latin group of peoples, women in Celt society could own their own property, and even be the most powerful member of society, like Queen Boudicca. And when they got divorced(yes they were not property of their husbands) they kept everything they brought into the marriage.

Gaul for example had a large socialist society. It had a massive network of wood roads and causeways that spider-webbed the entire land. Unlike the Roman roads, "all roads lead to Rome" which were made to funnel all the wealth and slaves the Romans stole from their neighbors... back to Rome, the Celts did not have a capitol, they did not have an elected ruler unless they were at war.

You have 2000 years of smear campaigns against Pagans run by power hungry propagandists.


Message edited by Devo - Saturday, 29 Oct 2011, 20:53
 
DevoDate: Saturday, 29 Oct 2011, 20:58 | Message # 23
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Also, if you notice, virtually all Roman coins before Caesar's conquest of Gaul were minted in cheap alloys and non-precious metals. After the conquest Roman coins were minted in huge numbers in gold and silver... that they stole from Gaul, the richest society in the western world, as they called them all savages and barbarians. And they have been demonized ever since.

My Celt roots were wiped almost completely away from the Earth by the Romans and Catholics. It's a great historical tragedy.
 
BlaziusDate: Saturday, 29 Oct 2011, 22:07 | Message # 24
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Quote (Devo)
That is the Catholic Church propaganda campaign against Pagans. 'Witches' were priestesses in the Celtic religions. Unlike in Rome and the Latin group of peoples, women in Celt society could own their own property, and even be the most powerful member of society, like Queen Boudicca. And when they got divorced(yes they were not property of their husbands) they kept everything they brought into the marriage.

Gaul for example had a large socialist society. It had a massive network of wood roads and causeways that spider-webbed the entire land. Unlike the Roman roads, "all roads lead to Rome" which were made to funnel all the wealth and slaves the Romans stole from their neighbors... back to Rome, the Celts did not have a capitol, they did not have an elected ruler unless they were at war.

You have 2000 years of smear campaigns against Pagans run by power hungry propagandists.


I think one of the reasons some historian believe that witch hunts were largely an effort to subdue females is as you mentioned cultures predating the Church valued females far more while the Church preached that women are inferior to men(not directly maybe but they "implied it heavily" . It makes sense that besides subtle manipulation they take more brutal action towards them. While the hunts were the most large scale during the 15th and 18th century it doesn't mean there weren't chased and killed earlier.

Quote (Devo)
Also, if you notice, virtually all Roman coins before Caesar's conquest of Gaul were minted in cheap alloys and non-precious metals. After the conquest Roman coins were minted in huge numbers in gold and silver... that they stole from Gaul, the richest society in the western world, as they called them all savages and barbarians. And they have been demonized ever since.

My Celt roots were wiped almost completely away from the Earth by the Romans and Catholics. It's a great historical tragedy.


I don't want to sound anti-religion but the domination of the Catholic Church was a great tragedy overall and they caused so much harm to society in so many different level thats just painful. Besides mass murder they are responsible for halting our overall technological advance by their anti-science, scientist burning ways. Maybe if they weren't Summer Glau Wiki wouldn't only be an international but an interplanetary website too cool

There is one thing with religion. If you practice it normally then there is not a problem, if you choose to be religious then do it. But if somebody crosses the line be it a single person or a whole country its the most dangerous and harmful thing imaginable. Religion definitely needs to be controlled and contained( I don't think I need to explain it to Americans BTW). And by religion I also mean those cases which aren't belief in some kind of god but in an idea for example, its effects are the same.

BTW welcome back, Devo I started to miss you smile


Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!
 
Summer-Glau.com Forum » Off Topic » The Water Cooler » Halloween @ Summer Glau Wiki : dress like your fav character
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