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Summer-Glau.com Forum » Filmography » Terminator the Sarah Connor Chronicles » Site poll: What do you think about Jameron? (A thread to discuss site poll question.)
Site poll: What do you think about Jameron?
Blazius Post # 31 | Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012 - 03:11
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Quote (kaotic)
It's funny that you mention drama. I was looking through some of the other threads and someone mentioned that John was an asshole to Cameron for a lot of season two. But the thing is, he had every right to be angry at her, she did try to kill him. He loved her and then tried to kill him... No matter who you are, you would feel the same way, especially after that person tells you "you can't be trusted anymore". Trust is something that takes time to rebuild. Yet he still considered her his friend and he cared and loved her. The last seven episodes prove that John was still in love with Cameron and that he did trust her.


Except that John realized in the same episode when the attack happened that her chip damaged physically ( e.g its not her fault) . And then he trusted her enough to give her a gun and stand in front of it because he knew she wouldn't pull the trigger ever out of her own will. He obviously held no grudge for it. And then in the second part of season 2 he started to bash her because of it and was an asshole to her for no apparent reason. Yeah, thats very nice indeed. He should have treated her as a mentally sick being who is not responsible for her actions because that was exactly the case. In her sane moments Cam was so depressed by her actions that she'd even die so she cant do it ever again. Yet John treated her as if she consciously tried to kill him? Why don't just let Sarah kill her in S&D as planned instead?

Oh and he constantly pulled this " You are just a machine" nonsense even in Born to Run. Thats not only not a very kind way to treat your love interest but he also deprived her from her rights of sentience and treated her as an object. This and the knowledge of what she did in Samson and Delilah effected Cam deeply. In Self Made man for example she showed signs equivalent to mental sickness( kind of, in robot terms) to the point that she started to think about suicide so she is certainly not immune to such negative effects because of her sentience( OK I'm making too many human analogies here, since she is a robot her thoughts are more logic based and she doesn't feel these as "emotions" as we'd call it but I just want to demonstrate the negative effects Johns behavior may had on her)

So yeah John was an asshole to her certainly. On the other hand we have scenes where John risks everything for her out of love wacko

So yeah, I do think that season 2 Johns behaviour was an inconsistent, frustrating mess and killed every Jameronist feelings from me if I had any.

Regarding Jameron, I don't deny that John had romantic feelings for Cam and I didn't deny that Cam "loves" John too as much as a logic based sentient entity can however its very obvious that mutual romantic love can never develop between them since Cameron is incapable of romantic love and has no sexual drive. And its also obvious that the very creators of the show would agree with me too.

Just to pull the Born to Run bed scene out again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOH5iXPi50s ( embedding is disabled sadly)

Listen to what Josh Friedman( I think its his voice) says at 2:10.

This corresponds exactly with my interpretation of the scene which I wrote in this thread:

http://summer-glau.com/forum/14-309-14

( message 200)

I think thats very hard evidence that they never intended to make Cam capable of romantic love ever. So the only way John would be in any kind of "romantic" relationship with Cam would be with Cam as his sex slave( harsh but true I'm afraid)


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Message edited by Blazius - Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 03:33
 
kaotic Post # 32 | Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012 - 03:38
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John wasn't just being "mean" to Cameron. He was mean to everyone in his family after S&D. He treated his mother, uncle, and Cameron like crap and well, he was going through some problems. He did just KILL SOMEONE (that's a very big deal) and have the *girl* he loved tried to kill him (this is a very big deal) and told him he couldn't be trusted.

Um, I listened to that multiple times and all Josh Friedman says is that Cameron is a machine. That what John loves is a machine and not a girl. No where in that does Josh Friedman say that Cameron can't love John romantically. She isn't human so she wouldn't love him the same way a normal human girl would, but does that make her love any less real? No. Hell, Josh Friedman even said in that commentary: it's a John and Cameron LOVE STORY!

Sex slave? How do you figure? Cameron can make her own decisions. If she wants to have sex with John, then she has chosen to do so. John wouldn't and doesn't control her. And if you mean it's because she doesn't get anything from sex, well, just cause she can't have an orgasm doesn't mean she can't feel something from sex. She can feel (she said so herself) so that means she might obtain some kind of pleasure from it. Sex drive isn't need for romantic love. Romantic love doesn't mean sex.

There is no hard evidence of what you say there, imo.
--
Quote
she doesn't feel these as "emotions" as we'd call it but I just want to demonstrate the negative effects Johns behavior may had on her)


She wanted to kill herself because she thought she was a threat to John. It had nothing to do with how he was treating her. This is even shown in the deleted scene. She tells John that she will find a way to kill herself so she can't hurt him again.

I'd also like to add that John was having trouble accepting and dealing with the fact that he was in love with a machine. He treated her that way because he was trying to push her away (which is why he stayed with Riley). He didn't love Riley, he loved Cameron and didn't know how to handle that. Even the creator of the show said that he was sublimating his feelings for Cameron to Riley. He wanted to be with Cameron, but couldn't be with her.

I love that people forget that John is also going through a lot. Loving a machine wouldn't be easy for anyone. I've read many posts where someone is saying that John was an asshole. But if you were in John's shoes, you would probably have done the same thing he did. The guy was 16, in love with a machine, and going through some really messed up stuff.


Message edited by kaotic - Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 04:08
 
Blazius Post # 33 | Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012 - 04:09
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Quote (kaotic)
John wasn't just being "mean" to Cameron. He was mean to everyone in his family after S&D. He treated his mother, uncle, and Cameron like crap and well, he was going through some problems. He did just kill someone and have the *girl* he loved tried to kill him and told him he couldn't be trusted.


And Cam had problems too and since she is sentient her problems aren't any less important than Johns petty teen emo kid issues. Cam wants to kill herself actually. And Johns asshole behavior potentially worsened her situation.

And again, if his love for Cameron would be hindered by the attack I find it hard to believe that he'd still risk his life to save her.

And again John realized in the same episode that its not Cams fault AT ALL.

Cannot be trusted that he'll kill her if she "ever goes bad again". Would John really be that retard that he can't understand why she said it?

Quote (kaotic)
She isn't human so she wouldn't love him the same way a normal human girl would, but does that make her love any less real?


Quote (Blazius)
I didn't deny that Cam "loves" John too as much as a logic based sentient entity can


I said that too.

Quote (kaotic)
Um, I listened to that multiple times and all Josh Friedman says is that Cameron is a machine. That what John loves is a machine and not a girl. No where in that does Josh Friedman say that Cameron can't love John romantically.


Its obvious that Cam wants to tell this to John so he'd understand that she can't love him as he loves her.

Quote (kaotic)
t's a John and Cameron LOVE STORY!


Possibly about unrequinted love?

Quote (kaotic)
And if you mean it's because she doesn't get anything from sex, well, just cause she can't have an orgasm doesn't mean she can't feel something from sex. She can feel (she said so herself) so that means she might obtain some kind of pleasure from it. Sex drive isn't need for romantic love. Romantic love doesn't mean sex.


Her brain cannot process the sensory data as "pleasure" as you call it since it doesn't work like your brain.

But I won 't write this down again.

Read message 6 with the pictures in this tread( last paragraph before the pictures):

http://summer-glau.com/forum/14-165-1#3923

Sex drive is not needed for romantic love? Since when?


Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!


Message edited by Blazius - Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 04:12
 
kaotic Post # 34 | Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012 - 04:19
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Its obvious that Cam wants to tell this to John so he'd understand that she can't love him as he loves her.


That's not what I got from that.

Quote
Her brain cannot process the sensory data as "pleasure" as you call it since it doesn't work like your brain.


You know this how? Her brain can process data about heat, and how the wind feels against her skin. If she can feel heat and wind flowing between her skin then she might be able to feel some form of pleasure. Even, the T800 from T2 could feel something like pain and if they can feel something like pain then they can feel something akin to pleasure.


Message edited by kaotic - Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 04:47
 
Blazius Post # 35 | Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012 - 04:41
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You know this how? Her brain can process data about heat, and how the wind feels against her skin. If she can feel heat and wind flowing between her skin then she might be able to feel some form of pleasure. Even, the T800 from T2 could feel something like pain and if they can feel something like pain then they can feel something akin to pleasure.


Because she was designed obviously that way because thats useful when she is infiltrating. Feeling pleasure is not. E.g. Skynet doesn't put it in her.

Johns and Uncle Bobs conversation in T2( from T2 script)

"JOHN
Does it hurt?

TERMINATOR
I sense injuries. The data could be called
pain."

E.g. its not "pain" as you'd call it.

Also in TSCC season 1 episode 8 we see that terminators have entirely different thought processes as humans, you can't even define their thoughts as thoughts in human terms. So how would Cam feel pleasure from sex and have sex drive? Her physiology doesn't support that at all.

So if she can't feel pleasure from sex then the only way for her to get laid with John if she is his sex slave.


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kaotic Post # 36 | Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012 - 04:48
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Of course it's not the same, but it's still pain to them.

Again, if she can feel something akin pain, then she can feel something akin pleasure.

ETA: This is my last post on the above subject. (i.e. whether or not she can love or feel pleasure.) I don't feel like having a discussion I've had a billion times on other sites.

ETA2:
Quote
Sex drive is not needed for romantic love? Since when?


Sex drive is about sex. Period. Romance or romantic love doesn't need to be solely about sex. There are couples out there that don't have sex and yet they still love each other. There are women that have lost their sex drive completely but that doesn't stop them from loving their significant other.


Message edited by kaotic - Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 05:13
 
Alex Post # 37 | Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012 - 04:59
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FWIW, I really enjoy reading this thread. I am still relatively new to TSCC and I am still feeling a profound sense of loss that the series ended as it did.

One thing that occurs to me based on several of the posts in this thread is that we don't really know a lot about how Cameron's brain functions. I realize that she is an artificial intelligence but I wonder to what extent we should accept that we can never really know her processing of emotions, how she forms relationships, and other aspects where we would assume, quite reasonably, how she mimics (or perhaps participates in) what we believe to be exclusively human behaviour.

My apologies if I am not being clear. She is a second or third generation AI device developed by other AI devices. She is a post singularity computer and I believe that perhaps Friedman wanted that element of uncertainty as to how she works, how she thinks, and how she feels to be really uncertain. This uncertainty would challenge our collective understanding of how she would be expected to function. And by singularity, I mean that point when "machines" become more intelligent that their human creators.

The more I read the comments of others such as in this thread and from other sources, I feel a greater sense of loss that this series did not get to continue.

Kaotic: I had a look at the links you provided. Thanks for posting the fanfic. I look forward to reading it. That is really impressive what you did with the gifs.


If you are going through Hell, keep going.
 
kaotic Post # 38 | Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012 - 05:11
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Quote (Alex)
I believe that perhaps Friedman wanted that element of uncertainty as to how she works, how she thinks, and how she feels to be really uncertain. This uncertainty would challenge our collective understanding of how she would be expected to function.


I agree with you and it's why I always keep an opened mind when it comes to how she works and functions. I don't put any limits on what Cameron is capable of. She is the most advanced terminator created after all, and we only know a very small amount about her.

Quote
Kaotic: I had a look at the links you provided. Thanks for posting the fanfic. I look forward to reading it.


You're welcome! Blackout & Awake are two of my all time favorite fanfictions.


Message edited by kaotic - Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 05:24
 
Blazius Post # 39 | Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012 - 05:29
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Of course it's not pain the same way we fill it, but it's still pain to them.

Again, if she can feel something akin pain, the she can feel something akin pleasure.


No. Its like if your cars indicator alarms you that your coolant boils. You could say that it alarms you because it "hurts" for the car. Its has the same functionality as pain which alarms humans if something is damaged in their body so you can tell this analogy. Uncle Bob says the same, an analogy to John. Terminators doesn't feel "pain" ( think about it, they'd be knocked out by the sheer amount of pain they'd feel after that many shots and hits during combat) merely registrate damage, there is a difference.

Quote (kaotic)
Again, if she can feel something akin pain, the she can feel something akin pleasure.


Why would that be true? Registrating damage is invaluable for strategic and tactical reasons in a combat situation. Pleasure is not. Humans are "designed" with these pleasure inducting mechanisms so they'll seek out and mate with other humans to reproduce. There is nothing even remotely similar thing in terminators, not in their programming, not in their bodies, they simply don't need it since they don't and can't reproduce sexually in any way. That'd insanely absurd if she'd be able to feel pleasure out of sex. Even organics are not compatible with each other who even have similar mechanisms. Saying that Cam finds John hot is just isn't right.

Quote (kaotic)
Sex drive is about sex. Period. Romance or romantic love doesn't need to be solely about sex. There are couples out there that don't have sex and yet they still love each other. There are women that have lost their sex drive completely but that doesn't stop them from loving their significant other.


Males and females form couples because of their basic instincts to reproduce sexually. Thats a fact. Its not about sex always but thats the foundation.

Cam doesn't have these basic instincts so she is incapable of romantic love obviously.


Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!
 
kaotic Post # 40 | Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012 - 05:34
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Well, I'll only say that my view is different and we'll have to agree to disagree.
 
Blazius Post # 41 | Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012 - 05:56
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Well, I'll only say that my view is different and we'll have to agree to disagree.


Thats fine.

I just like to debate about these things and forming theories you know. Nothing personal or anything, just a little exercise and another excuse to keep TSCC fresh smile

I haven't seen my debating friend Fordstaff for some time so I guess I'm compensating with these Anti-Jameronist debates, I won't be popular with them though.



Summer Glau is so awesome, it isn't even funny!
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!
 
kaotic Post # 42 | Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012 - 06:03
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Quote (Blazius)
Quote (kaotic)
Well, I'll only say that my view is different and we'll have to agree to disagree.


Thats fine.

I just like to debate about these things and forming theories you know. Nothing personal or anything, just a little exercise and another excuse to keep TSCC fresh smile

I haven't seen my debating friend Fordstaff for some time so I guess I'm compensating with these Anti-Jameronist debates, I won't be popular with them though.



Yeah, there's nothing personal. But I'm not a big fan of the "anti-jameron" debates. I had enough of them on the red and blue wikis. I posted here to just get some activity in the thread and to show support for the ship, one that I enjoy more than any other relationship I've ever read about or seen on TV. I don't really care to argue about it anymore. At this point, just give me a good old echo-chamber, heh.


Message edited by kaotic - Tuesday, 03 Jan 2012, 06:04
 
chrisdvanne_ Post # 43 | Tuesday, 17 Jan 2012 - 21:53
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Kaotic posted a really good Jameron fanart, even it's so not representative of the relationship between John and Cameron :

Cameron and John - Jameron


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Alex Post # 44 | Wednesday, 18 Jan 2012 - 00:33
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Quote (kaotic)
Quote (Alex)
I believe that perhaps Friedman wanted that element of uncertainty as to how she works, how she thinks, and how she feels to be really uncertain. This uncertainty would challenge our collective understanding of how she would be expected to function.


I agree with you and it's why I always keep an opened mind when it comes to how she works and functions. I don't put any limits on what Cameron is capable of. She is the most advanced terminator created after all, and we only know a very small amount about her.

Quote
Kaotic: I had a look at the links you provided. Thanks for posting the fanfic. I look forward to reading it.


You're welcome! Blackout & Awake are two of my all time favorite fanfictions.


I downloaded the two stories and I read them. They were really good stories. Jesse Daro is a very talented writer. You mentioned that she took them down from FanFiction.net. While it is unfortunate that she did, I believe you said that she was trying to sell these stories? I can only hope that she is successful in her efforts and that perhaps she will contribute to a new Terminator movie or television show. Yeah, I know, a long shot but it was a really good read.

Thanks again.


If you are going through Hell, keep going.
 
Alex Post # 45 | Wednesday, 18 Jan 2012 - 00:34
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Quote (chrisdvanne)
Kaotic posted a really good Jameron fanart, even it's so not representative of the relationship between John and Cameron :

Cameron and John - Jameron


Very nice. Is this based on The Cape?


If you are going through Hell, keep going.
 
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